Apostolic Blueprints
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[00:00:00] Isaac: And so what does it mean when we're making disciples? To get to the [00:00:05] point that at the return of Jesus, the nations come and submit their allegiance to him. That's [00:00:10] much more than an evangelistic altar call or churches. We know it [00:00:15] requires us discipling the nations to give their allegiance to a coming King.
[00:00:19] [00:00:20] And that's what it's going to look like. And that's what Yeshua is worthy of.
[00:00:23] [00:00:25] [00:00:30] [00:00:35] [00:00:40] [00:00:45] [00:00:50] [00:00:55] [00:01:00]
[00:01:04] Jeremy: [00:01:05] Hey guys, welcome to the 1000 Houses podcast. Um, I am excited to [00:01:10] bring you guys this episode because this is, I've, I've, uh, had a long term collaborator. [00:01:15] Um, Isaac Steckbeck, who's on a call with me today. Isaac, thanks for joining me.
[00:01:19] Isaac: [00:01:20] Thank you. It's good to see you again. Yeah. Always.
[00:01:23] Jeremy: Yeah, absolutely. We, so Isaac [00:01:25] and I, we, we got to hang out in, uh, Emek Refaim in Jerusalem.
[00:01:28] Uh, we had a fun, [00:01:30] Uh, lunch together and just got to catch up on a lot of things, spent hours. And I was just like, [00:01:35] Oh, I don't want this to end. And so I'm like, how can we have a conversation on a regular basis? Because I, [00:01:40] I desperately need help. and collaborators when it comes to trying to [00:01:45] understand, uh, disciple making movements.
[00:01:47] A lot of what we're trying to do right now in 1KH 1000 [00:01:50] houses is sort of crack this code of how do you get to the third, fourth generation disciple making? It's incredibly [00:01:55] difficult. Um, in the West there's unique challenges. Um, so one of the, I think there are [00:02:00] principles that are being discovered all over the world that are, you know, we need to [00:02:05] figure out how to filter in.
[00:02:06] One of the things I love about Isaac's ministries, I feel like he can really talk [00:02:10] about both. elements, both like what's working in [00:02:15] context where disciple making movements are just erupting, but you also understand [00:02:20] a lot about our context. Like you, you completely understand like what's going on here in the West and, [00:02:25] and have tried to do this as well in America and had, you know, have seen some things take off.
[00:02:29] [00:02:30] So I want to, I want to like, Really try to just understand these things and, and discuss this. But what, one [00:02:35] of the things I just kind of going back to a lot of my passion for [00:02:40] people of peace and trying to understand how to see a [00:02:45] movement start through disciple making really started. Um, I don't know when it was at least 10 years [00:02:50] ago, um, we were in Jerusalem.
[00:02:52] And I had actually found Isaac on Facebook [00:02:55] and tracked him down and we were saying, Hey, let's, can we get together? I didn't know [00:03:00] anybody really in Jerusalem at the time. This is before our family started going over there a lot. [00:03:05] And so we were just there for a short tour and Isaac agreed not only to meet with [00:03:10] us, but to take us to a a conference, a little conference, [00:03:15] um, at one of the houses of prayer in Jerusalem.
[00:03:17] Um, and we got to meet, [00:03:20] uh, Bindu Chowdhury, which was such an awesome experience. Um, Victor and [00:03:25] Bindu I know have had a huge impact on, on Isaac and their ministry in India, which [00:03:30] has had crazy amounts of multiplication. So, um, so that was kind of the beginning of a journey for me [00:03:35] of like trying to understand how all this works.
[00:03:36] Um, so what I wanted to do today, Isaac, and I, I [00:03:40] kind of want to have a few conversations, um, we'll see where this goes, but I just want to start with hearing a little [00:03:45] bit about just your journey into the mission of disciple making, when I, when I go around to [00:03:50] churches. Um, I hear some, there's, there's such a, um, especially in the [00:03:55] West, such an assumption that the mission of the church is to plant churches and to grow [00:04:00] churches and to create healthy churches that are well shepherded by full time pastors.
[00:04:04] And when I, when I [00:04:05] encountered. Isaac, you, you, you're, you're thinking about this was so different and [00:04:10] clear minded and very aligned with what I was sensing and seeing in the new Testament, but just hadn't really [00:04:15] encountered in any kind of healthy way. So, yeah, you can start wherever you'd like, but I just kind of want to [00:04:20] dive into a little bit of your story.
[00:04:21] How did, how did you begin to think about what is the nature of our [00:04:25] mission? How would you, how would you answer that question?
[00:04:28] Isaac: What is the nature of our mission and [00:04:30] how I think about that? So, [00:04:35] wow, it's been a long journey. And I'm thankful about. The majority of this journey, when [00:04:40] we look over the years, has actually been walked together with you and even us talking over the [00:04:45] years.
[00:04:45] And, and a lot of it is, you know, I [00:04:50] don't think you could really do anything without the leading of the Holy Spirit, to be honest with you. [00:04:55] Um, that's the number one is understanding scriptures and the Holy Spirit because they're, uh, [00:05:00] it's not cookie cutter. And so, [00:05:05] um, I guess the way the journey started for me is I moved to Israel [00:05:10] in 2002, became a youth pastor in Israel and Tel [00:05:15] Aviv.
[00:05:15] And when I was a youth pastor there, it was against the law to share the gospel [00:05:20] with minors. We had a tiny youth group, only a handful of people, and very [00:05:25] few believers in Tel Aviv. And I thought to myself, how do we, how do we, um, [00:05:30] like, multiply congregations, and how do I help grow this youth [00:05:35] group, um, when we can't, uh, when we can't, [00:05:40] um, like, evangelize to, to minors as a law?[00:05:45]
[00:05:45] Yeah. And so, In the midst of thinking about that, I prayed about it. [00:05:50] And I guess what I was encouraged to do at the time was I was encouraged just to create a really full [00:05:55] youth group. And with cool events and, [00:06:00] and, um, and eventually the other believing youth in Tel Aviv would be attracted to our [00:06:05] events and that's how I was encouraged to grow the youth group.
[00:06:08] And maybe the adults would come with them. [00:06:10] And I just thought in my heart, there had to be more than this. This was [00:06:15] my passion for mission since I was five years old. What's deeper than [00:06:20] just transfer growth and there had to be something more than transfer growth [00:06:25] as a tool of growing a congregation and what about this [00:06:30] commission to make disciples in all nations and in the midst of really thinking about [00:06:35] that and praying about that.
[00:06:35] I had decided, you know, what? I can't share the gospel [00:06:40] with youth. Our youth group can't host evangelistic meetings for youth. [00:06:45] But what we can do is we can train young people to [00:06:50] share their faith with the people around them where they're at. [00:06:55] And so that's what we started to do rather than having sermons.
[00:06:58] And, [00:07:00] um, sermons and cool events, um, I went a different way and I would take [00:07:05] the youth group and I would just go on a clipping sections about how to share your faith [00:07:10] and, and have accountability groups for it. Well, to my astonishment, [00:07:15] it actually worked. And, um, But then we had another problem. And the [00:07:20] second problem was these youth couldn't come to the youth group without a [00:07:25] permission slip from their parents.
[00:07:27] And I never met these youth, these youth that were coming to [00:07:30] faith were coming to faith through the youth in, in our, um, [00:07:35] basically, you know, in the neighborhoods where they live and not anywhere [00:07:40] near where I lived. And so, um, we didn't, I never met them. I can't meet them. [00:07:45] And so I prayed about it. I thought, well, we probably should train the youth.
[00:07:49] to [00:07:50] disciple the youth where they're at, and they don't have to come to the congregation. [00:07:55] And that's what we started to do. And then the Holy Spirit began to [00:08:00] birth when it started to work. It actually worked very well. And there was youth all over [00:08:05] having home meetings in, in their neighborhoods. And some [00:08:10] of them lived in boarding schools and they had home groups in their boarding schools.
[00:08:13] And I never got to meet [00:08:15] the youth that they were meeting with. But they were learning the discipleship lessons [00:08:20] we were teaching our youth. And this really birthed a passion in [00:08:25] my heart. What if we trained the whole congregation to do this? And so I went to my leaders and they didn't [00:08:30] really understand me and that's okay. They were great leaders. But I went to them and I said, Hey, what if we [00:08:35] would encourage them to do this and everybody could have their own congregation where they live [00:08:40] and we can train them to make disciples.
[00:08:42] And, and [00:08:45] eventually, um, after I had helped establish another youth leader, take my place and do the same [00:08:50] thing I was doing, which was another lesson about how to raise up leaders and how to [00:08:55] multiply yourself to be a leader that's doing the same thing you're doing. .
[00:08:59] And, [00:09:00] um, and it led me on a journey. I discovered what church planning movements was. Then I got to meet [00:09:05] people like Victor Chowdhury, George Patterson, David Watson, started learning from them yourself.[00:09:10]
[00:09:10] We started corroborating. I learned a lot from you. And it's just been a learning experience ever since. [00:09:15] But the passion is how do we better make disciples. It's like a tool that Jesus commanded us. [00:09:20] Yeshua commanded us to do. And we constantly need to learn to perfect [00:09:25] this skill because of the passion.
[00:09:27] And part of that's the Holy Spirit. Most of it's the Holy Spirit [00:09:30] and perfecting it. But it's also saying, how can I sharpen who I am as a disciple [00:09:35] maker and thus reproduce myself as a better disciple maker? Um, as far [00:09:40] as the question about why we do this, why is it important that we [00:09:45] go out and make disciples?
[00:09:48] Every morning, I [00:09:50] quote Genesis 49. 10, and, when I wake up, and Genesis 49. [00:09:55] 10 is the passion, it's my life verse, it's the reason why I make disciples, it's the reason I [00:10:00] teach. Everyone who makes disciples that I've ever been able to train and [00:10:05] had contact with, I've taught them this verse. And it's, the scepter will not [00:10:10] depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff between his feet, until Shiloh [00:10:15] comes.
[00:10:15] And he is worthy of the obedience. of [00:10:20] every nation. He is worthy of the obedience of every nation. [00:10:25] And the heart behind that is that there's this, it's a prophecy that Jacob is [00:10:30] giving to his 10 children and two grandchildren, and he gets to Judah, and he says to Judah, [00:10:35] basically, your children will be the dynasty of kings in Israel.
[00:10:39] It's [00:10:40] out of your seed that will come the dynasty. You will rule over your brothers. But there's one who's coming [00:10:45] out of your dynasty who will not only rule your brothers, But he will be [00:10:50] worthy of the obedience, not only of Israel, but of every nation of the [00:10:55] world. And so the question of disciple making is not, are we leading people to faith?
[00:10:59] [00:11:00] Are people coming to belief in Jesus, but are we preparing people? For [00:11:05] the return of King Yeshua to sit on the throne of David and them give him [00:11:10] their allegiance and obedience 'cause that's what he's worthy of. And that's what the Great Commission [00:11:15] calls us to. And that's what Making Disciples is about.
[00:11:17] It's not about bringing people [00:11:20] to belief in a philosophy, but being, bringing people into loving submission [00:11:25] to a coming king. And so that would be my heart for disciple [00:11:30] making. And I guess there's another verse, one more verse, I'll say, and then we can continue. But the other verse [00:11:35] that I really meditate on a lot lately is the verse when it [00:11:40] says, How blessed are those who of the feet of those who bring good news, who, [00:11:45] uh, who bring good news, who declare peace.
[00:11:47] who say to Zion, your God [00:11:50] reigns. And I used to think about that verse and Romans 10 quotes that verse from [00:11:55] Isaiah. And I think it's 54, but Romans 10 quotes [00:12:00] that verse. And basically, um, when it's quoting that verse, [00:12:05] It's using it as how can they hear unless there's an evangelist. So it's usually used as an [00:12:10] evangelistic verse.
[00:12:10] But when you dig deeper into that verse, it's an eschatological [00:12:15] chapter in Isaiah talking about the return of the Lord. And [00:12:20] the good news is not preached to the entire world there. It's actually preached to Zion. [00:12:25] Zion is the receiver of the good news. And it's Zion. It's the [00:12:30] Jewish people that are looking and seeing the feet of those bringing [00:12:35] good news on the heels.
[00:12:35] They're coming on the heels of Zion to Jerusalem at [00:12:40] the return of the king. This is the context of the return of the king to sit on the throne of David when he's [00:12:45] ruling and reigning in power and authority. The picture that you're receiving there is that [00:12:50] you have all these delegates and ambassadors from every nation of the world coming [00:12:55] to submit their allegiance to King Jesus.
[00:12:58] And while they're coming [00:13:00] on the mountains to submit their allegiance to King Jesus, the Jewish people, Zion is [00:13:05] looking out and saying, blessed are the feet of those who bring good news, who say to Zion, [00:13:10] your God reigns. So they're actually declaring to Zion, to the Jewish people, [00:13:15] that we're coming to submit ourselves to your God and your King.
[00:13:19] And so [00:13:20] what does it mean when we're making disciples? To get to the point that at the [00:13:25] return of Jesus, the nations come and submit their allegiance to him. That's much more than [00:13:30] an evangelistic altar call or churches. We know it requires us [00:13:35] discipling the nations to give their allegiance to a coming King.
[00:13:39] And that's what it's going [00:13:40] to look like. And that's what Yeshua is worthy of.
[00:13:43] Jeremy: And why do [00:13:45] you, so when you think about your passion for the ruling. King, [00:13:50] kingdom of Christ like that. This is the this is the essence of why we should make disciples is because [00:13:55] he's worthy Is it is this part of why disciple like it seems like [00:14:00] there's been so much just like misunderstanding or confusion around the [00:14:05] mission of Of what we're trying to do.
[00:14:07] So it keeps getting replaced by [00:14:10] other, other lesser missions. And you're saying like in your story, they're sort of zeroing in [00:14:15] on, okay. Our, I know our mission is to make disciples. Um, but I do feel like [00:14:20] that reason is like the absolute best reason I've ever heard for discipleship and, [00:14:25] and other reasons like, Oh, it's a good strategy.
[00:14:27] Or, you know, um, you know, they, they [00:14:30] seem a lot less, like I can understand how somebody might, you argue their way out of some of these [00:14:35] other reasons, or they can become more slippery, but that, that one is incredibly [00:14:40] powerful to say, look, Yeshua is worthy of the obedience of the nations. And [00:14:45] so like, it makes so much more sense to me of the book of Acts, like why you would so boldly go into [00:14:50] these other countries and start to proclaim and that you're [00:14:55] also colliding with other governing structures and You know, [00:15:00] this is becoming very threatening to, to the, um, sort of political [00:15:05] establishment of every city that basically Paul walked into.
[00:15:07] They were like, Oh, we gotta, we gotta get rid of that. There was [00:15:10] always a collaboration between the political ruling class. And, um, [00:15:15] and then the resistance, uh, the resisting religious class to get rid of [00:15:20] the, um, Jesus is why Pilate and Herod formed an alliance to crucify Jesus. [00:15:25] And you saw, you see this and it feels like what happens in our case is there isn't this [00:15:30] Understanding that what, that your message is, is about a kingdom and it doesn't [00:15:35] stir up that kind of opposition generally in, in the West.
[00:15:38] Um, yeah. So, [00:15:40] yeah, I'm curious what your thoughts are about, about like, I would love to hear you go a layer deeper into [00:15:45] what, what does it look like to make disciples with this being the foundation that he's worthy of the [00:15:50] obedience of the nations that, that, that we want to end up saying to Zion, your God [00:15:55] reigns.
[00:15:56] Isaac: No, that's you. You hit the nail on the head with [00:16:00] that one. I'm actually excited to talk about this. And even some of the talking points you were bringing up, [00:16:05] um, you know, when, when working in these unreached, unengaged underground [00:16:10] people groups in the world, I work in Israel and I work around Israel. the world in Unreached and Engaged People Groups, [00:16:15] because I believe Israel is called to be a light to the nations.
[00:16:17] So from Israel, from [00:16:20] Jerusalem, we're going to Unreached and Engaged People Groups in the world. But in the midst of doing that, one of the [00:16:25] things that becomes a pattern, not only with us, but every disciple making ministry I've ever ran into, is [00:16:30] exactly what you're saying and brought up, that it collides with the local governments.[00:16:35]
[00:16:35] And the reason it collides with the local governments is that when [00:16:40] you're making disciples, you're not just preaching a belief. You're [00:16:45] creating a culture. And, you know, when the [00:16:50] Romans and the Greeks, um, when you had Pax Romana around the world and you had the Greeks, you know, [00:16:55] Alexander the Great, and then his four generals conquering different parts of Asia [00:17:00] Minor, the Middle East, you know, parts of Europe, um, one of the things that [00:17:05] they did was they spread, um, you know, Greek culture, Greco Roman culture, which was Hellenism, [00:17:10] right?
[00:17:10] And they not only spread, they spread a law. they spread a culture, they [00:17:15] spread a way of living, and then they tried to adapt that way of living, but with a very [00:17:20] centralized culture called Hellenism around the world. Well, when we're spreading the kingdom, [00:17:25] we're essentially doing the same thing. We're ambassadors of a new [00:17:30] culture, and this culture looks like obedience to Yeshua.
[00:17:32] It looks like obedience to the [00:17:35] scriptures. And in that case, it's a very, it's, it's. He said his [00:17:40] kingdom is not of this world, it's of heaven. One day it will come on this world at the return of Jesus. But right now, [00:17:45] it's a heavenly kingdom. We're not, it's not a political system on the earth right now. It will be [00:17:50] in the future.
[00:17:50] We're looking forward to that day. But it is a political system. Because [00:17:55] we're talking about a certain, uh, set of, a certain culture, certain [00:18:00] laws. It's laws based out of love, [00:18:05] um, of course in grace, but it's, it's still, we're talking a set of boundaries and way of [00:18:10] living that sometimes it, it does well in cultures like it has in Europe and [00:18:15] other places like China.
[00:18:17] It completely, um, [00:18:20] it, uh, Completely is against the, the Chinese [00:18:25] communist culture that they're wanting to spread. And so when the gospel goes into places [00:18:30] like China, basically, the persecution that the Chinese Christians are [00:18:35] going through is not about their beliefs. And I want the Western world to hear this.
[00:18:39] Usually [00:18:40] when Chinese Christians are brought to trial, and I've seen the same thing in other countries I've been in and around the [00:18:45] world, even in the Middle East, it has nothing to do with, Freedom of religion and, [00:18:50] oh, they separated their beliefs. There's some places that that happens, but in most cases, most [00:18:55] persecution I've seen has to do with, oh, they're causing political descendancy.[00:19:00]
[00:19:00] They're, uh, they're basically creating a culture and a belief system [00:19:05] that goes against our belief system, even in atheist communist China. [00:19:10] And so. Believing in Yeshua and following [00:19:15] Him is a political statement to the world, even if we say there's separation of [00:19:20] church and state, which there is until He returns, but it's still a political system.
[00:19:23] We're still following [00:19:25] a heavenly political system, a heavenly economy, and that still will cause [00:19:30] persecution and collision with local economies, local cultures, local ways of being [00:19:35] in many cases. And so I think that's why obedience to Yeshua and his [00:19:40] commands is creating a kingdom. A kingdom is not just a religion.
[00:19:44] It's an, [00:19:45] it's a, it's a economic system. It's a culture and, and a [00:19:50] set of values that we're spreading that sometimes collide with other values. So yeah, [00:19:55] that's, I don't know if that answers your question. Yeah, that's
[00:19:57] Jeremy: really helpful. Yeah, I think, I think that, [00:20:00] I think this, this seems like a fundamental confusion about the nature of discipleship and the [00:20:05] nature of what Jesus came to do.
[00:20:07] So like, I, I would say that, that the way that I [00:20:10] see, if I were, if I were not raised in, in the [00:20:15] West at all, or, and I just kind of encountered Christianity, And, um, and then the, in the [00:20:20] Gospels, um, and it kind of contrasted them. I can't get over the fact that I would [00:20:25] basically have to come to the conclusion that, uh, Jesus and Paul and [00:20:30] the other apostles in the first century when, as I'm reading the book of Acts, the Gospels, and what came from them.[00:20:35]
[00:20:35] They came to start these disciple making movements that were, um, that were [00:20:40] multiplying and that were causing people at an absolutely foundational fundamental level to [00:20:45] become citizens of another kingdom. And this was very, created a lot of upheaval. [00:20:50] But then if I contrast that to what I see today, especially in the West, I [00:20:55] would conclude that people are trying to convert people into a religion called [00:21:00] Christianity.
[00:21:00] Um, which really doesn't have much to do with disciple making. It doesn't really threaten, [00:21:05] um, any of the political order. It really is about kind of [00:21:10] convincing people to adopt a certain number of normal rhythms in their life. You [00:21:15] know, like going to church on Sunday, you know, maybe giving to the church, uh, maybe [00:21:20] serving in the church.
[00:21:21] Um, so basically build this institution, serve this [00:21:25] institution, become a regular member of this institution. And you are [00:21:30] a part of this religion called Christianity. And as I'm contrasting these two things, one is [00:21:35] Jesus came to start a very contentious disciple making movement, [00:21:40] um, of his followers that we're going to upbeave the up, like upend [00:21:45] the current, uh, set of values, cultures, and that they would [00:21:50] be following him and obeying him.
[00:21:51] And this other thing, um, called Christianity, this sort of [00:21:55] religion of, um, you know, based around building [00:22:00] and attending and. a particular kind of religious institution. [00:22:05] These just don't seem like the same thing to me. And I, I, I, I I'm trying to understand how [00:22:10] to, how to re recover what Jesus. called us to do [00:22:15] in making disciples.
[00:22:16] And it seems like you'd have to say something like, and I always like to try to run the [00:22:20] thought experiment. If you have a brand new believer, how do you, how do they not get sucked into [00:22:25] immediately sucked into the religion of Christianity? It seems like very early on, you would have to lay some kind of [00:22:30] foundation of what this is in a totally different way to first of all, [00:22:35] inoculate them from, from thinking this is really about propping up a religious institution.
[00:22:39] And secondly, [00:22:40] so that they actually become a radical. follower of [00:22:45] Jesus, um, that thinks about Jesus. Is it, is there some like early [00:22:50] lessons or how do you lay a foundation like that? If you had a brand new believer, like you, you were in [00:22:55] Nashville for a while, if you were in somewhere in America and you had, you know, a brand new believer comes to [00:23:00] faith.
[00:23:00] Um, and they're like, great, I'm a Christian now. And I'm going to go to church on Sunday. Like, you [00:23:05] know, that almost is baked into the, they already believe that that's what this is, even [00:23:10] before you start discipling them, how do you, how do you do this with, uh, I [00:23:15] mean, especially in a Western context, have you, have you tried or done anything that kind of helps?
[00:23:19] disrupt [00:23:20] that assumption?
[00:23:21] Isaac: Wow. Um, that is the question of [00:23:25] questions. I think that, um, I would even probably say in [00:23:30] many cases, it's harder to do disciple making movements in a kingdom context [00:23:35] in the West. Um, it's easier to make a Christian in the West [00:23:40] than it is in the East, much easier, but to create a culture of the [00:23:45] coming kingdom of God, Um, and what that can look like, it's much easier to have a [00:23:50] clean slate and a clean found, uh, clean foundation to do it in, like going to an unreached, [00:23:55] unengaged people group than it is to undo what you have to do in the West so often.[00:24:00]
[00:24:00] Jeremy: Yes.
[00:24:01] Isaac: That is a challenge. It's a big challenge. It's, it's, um, [00:24:05] a nut that many people are trying to crack. We've been, we're beginning to see [00:24:10] it correct. I don't know if I have all the answers to be honest with you. I am not going to tell you I have all the answers. [00:24:15] I can tell you some of the lessons I've learned.
[00:24:17] Um, one of the lessons I've learned is [00:24:20] yes, you, um, if you built something on a wrong [00:24:25] foundation, there does need to be some demolition before there's [00:24:30] reconstruction, more so than in the East, there needs to [00:24:35] be, um, more teaching [00:24:40] And I guess more vision, I guess, like one of the, one of the things that I ran [00:24:45] into in, um, in, uh, and [00:24:50] like, for instance, in Israel or other places in Asia, the West bank [00:24:55] where I've worked is that when we're going to areas where there's never been a church and we lead people to [00:25:00] faith, the first question they ask themselves is not, how do we go to church now?[00:25:05]
[00:25:05] It's how do we live out our faith? And they live out their faith within the community that they [00:25:10] live in. And it's very easy for them to do that. Yeah. I worked with [00:25:15] two of my friends, um, three of my friends, John McPeters, Justin Steidinger, and [00:25:20] Seth Randall in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. And they started, we started a [00:25:25] group called The Bread Global, and they're still working on that as a team.
[00:25:29] [00:25:30] It's really powerful what they've done. They've seen a house church network of about a hundred people, over a hundred people [00:25:35] now. And that's after about three or four years, probably third generation of [00:25:40] disciple making. But one of the nets that we had to crack actually four [00:25:45] years is that we started discovery Bible study with non believers and what we [00:25:50] find is that with non believers, they prefer to go to a [00:25:55] seeker Bible study than they do to go to church.
[00:25:59] That's very [00:26:00] easy. The idea that there are people in this generation that would rather [00:26:05] learn the Scriptures and learn who Jesus are outside of the church, That is a true [00:26:10] statement. I, we've witnessed that we've started many groups of non [00:26:15] believers who, who are afraid to step into a church, don't know how to relate to churches when they step [00:26:20] into them.
[00:26:20] And it's easy to start groups with them. The challenge becomes once they come to faith. [00:26:25]
[00:26:26] Jeremy: Okay. Then what happens? Then what happens? So they [00:26:30] come to, I mean, I'd like to dig into how you guys do your discovery of Bible [00:26:35] studies and, and especially a Western context, but yeah, but they come to faith and then what happens?
[00:26:39] Like what, what, why is [00:26:40] that the challenge?
[00:26:41] Isaac: Because suddenly, and this is a good thing, it's not a bad thing, but it's a [00:26:45] challenge. I'm not gonna say it's a bad thing, I'm gonna say it's a challenge. It's a challenge if you have a movement [00:26:50] mentality. Those who don't have a movement mentality would actually see this as a great thing.
[00:26:54] [00:26:55] Um, but the challenge of those of us who have movement mentalities is that once these groups [00:27:00] come to faith, their mothers, brothers, sisters, uncles, parents, who've been praying for them forever [00:27:05] to come to faith, say, Oh, you're a believer now, come to my [00:27:10] church. And then suddenly, um, what we [00:27:15] find oftentimes is that while they were not interested in going to [00:27:20] church beforehand, and that it was easier for them to be a part of a seeker [00:27:25] group of non believers studying the scriptures together, it was easier for them.
[00:27:29] When they become [00:27:30] believers, suddenly that barrier of going to church is removed for them. And then they [00:27:35] get, rather than our seeker groups. And I'll tell you a little bit of how we [00:27:40] solved that issue. But it was an issue we had over and over and over again, rather than our secret groups being [00:27:45] home fellowships, which is what we wanted them to become, they got swept up into local churches.
[00:27:49] So we [00:27:50] became basically a peer church evangelistic organization feeding into the local churches, [00:27:55] which is not what we wanted to do. That's it. Stops what out? It stops not [00:28:00]
[00:28:00] Jeremy: stop stops movement. What's
[00:28:00] Isaac: that?
[00:28:01] Jeremy: It stops the movement.
[00:28:02] Isaac: Yeah. It's [00:28:05] not what we set out to do. And, and we also had a challenge 'cause we don't control people.
[00:28:09] That's one of [00:28:10] the issues of, uh, disciple making movements is free choice. [00:28:15] Yeah. You know, um, we're not telling people what to do. The scriptures and the Holy Spirit are. [00:28:20] And so then we got a challenge. We can't tell them, don't go to church or house church. Now we want [00:28:25] that them to see that from the scriptures and from the Holy Spirit to create a culture where that's available.
[00:28:29] And they [00:28:30] see it's a vision, but we're not going to tell them, Hey, you know, like a controlling [00:28:35] organization, you know, you have to stay here and be a part of a house church now. And so more than [00:28:40] often than not, they become a believers, especially when they start to have kids, there's programs and churches for [00:28:45] kids.
[00:28:46] Um, and then people that we've invested six months to a year and groups that [00:28:50] we've invested six months to a year in as a team suddenly don't [00:28:55] become part of the network of house churches. They get swept up into local churches, which were happy for them and [00:29:00] their faith and, but as far as those of us who want to start movement of [00:29:05] radical kingdom disciples that think the kingdom looks much different than this institution you were talking to [00:29:10] that created some challenges and it's one of the bigger challenges in the West.
[00:29:14] Jeremy: [00:29:15] And, and you said you've, so as you started seeing this pattern, you started to, you started [00:29:20] experiment with different ways of trying to disrupt the pattern. You said that you guys came up with some things. Yeah. [00:29:25] Tell me about anything you tried that I would try to keep, keep it a movement.
[00:29:29] Isaac: [00:29:30] Well, one of the things that we didn't want to do because it's a movement principle, especially in the East is [00:29:35] we didn't want to name the movement.
[00:29:36] We didn't want to create a website. We didn't want to brand it. Right. Right. [00:29:40] We wanted everything to be organic. Like, like we wanted [00:29:45] a network, but we didn't want it to give the network a name. We didn't want to give it to branding. We don't see brandings in the new Testament. [00:29:50] There was just the church of the city of Smyrna, the church of the, you know, like we don't see people [00:29:55] saying, you know, we're this, you know, some cool hipster name, you know what I mean?
[00:29:59] Like, [00:30:00] um, that people are doing now and then putting a website around it. And we didn't want [00:30:05] to do that. Like we were kind of, we wanted to go against the flow of American culture. [00:30:10] He kind of give it up, you know, like, like, [00:30:15] um, spitefully, like, say, we're not going to do that. But then we found out, like, [00:30:20] we gave in, but we prayed about it before we did.[00:30:25]
[00:30:25] We felt like the Holy Spirit said, do this not because this is [00:30:30] what you want to do. Do this because you're teaching kingdom culture. [00:30:35] And this is the context which Americans, for some reason, relate [00:30:40] to. Right. And as long as you keep the kingdom culture and the [00:30:45] nature of what you're doing, Good. You can use this as a contextualization format.
[00:30:49] [00:30:50] So we branded the bread global, right? [00:30:55] We started like creating house churches and websites and testimonies [00:31:00] and an events. But we kept the disciple making and the [00:31:05] vision and the kingdom culture clear that we're not an institution And what that did is [00:31:10] when believers were new in their faith And they're still American in mindset because a lot of [00:31:15] believers when they're new faith, they're still American They still want to belong to some sort of brand.
[00:31:19] That's just the [00:31:20] American way. It's not the Eastern way It's not the way in India. It's not the way in China, but it is the [00:31:25] American way Americans love branding. It's like The thing in America and Americans want to feel like they [00:31:30] belong to a brand.
[00:31:31] Jeremy: Yep. Well, I'm curious how you think about this, Isaac, because I, [00:31:35] there's a, I've really wrestled with this as well.
[00:31:38] I had a whole seasons where I [00:31:40] absolutely refused to brand things I was doing. And, um, and I really tried to figure [00:31:45] that out. And, and is it sort of a marketing thing? And I'll get throughout my theory. Um, [00:31:50] Which is, uh, you know, I'd love to get any feedback on this because I [00:31:55] think this is very confusing and it kind of touches on some things I've learned from you and we've talked about before a little bit.
[00:31:59] [00:32:00] So America is a little bit different beast in that like, it wasn't like an [00:32:05] apostle came to America and converted a bunch of people [00:32:10] who were not believers. Um, it was settled by people [00:32:15] from. mostly European countries that were bringing in their denominations, right? So [00:32:20] this is when I think about like, how did American Christianity get to the state it's in [00:32:25] right now?
[00:32:25] Um, it is, it wasn't primarily through, um, building on a [00:32:30] brand new foundation. It was really importing one denomination after another. And so in your [00:32:35] town in Germany, or in your town in Hungary, or in your town in Russia or in England, you would [00:32:40] all basically have the same blueprint for how to do church, how to.[00:32:45]
[00:32:45] How to conduct your faith, your Italian, your French, your Spanish. Um, but what, what do you do in [00:32:50] a city when there, there's a German community and a, you know, British community [00:32:55] and a Spanish community and a Jewish community. I mean, you've got like so many different communities. They're all importing their [00:33:00] own, their own blueprint for how to, how to, how to live out their faith.
[00:33:04] And so we'd [00:33:05] never got a chance to try to figure out, you know, and then there were movements of trying to convert people like Methodism that, you [00:33:10] know, came from America. Um, a lot of the Baptist movements that started in America, [00:33:15] but, but I think by then there was so much fracturing that are already occurred.
[00:33:19] There's already [00:33:20] an assumption that, that you can't just become a Christian and then join the, the way we [00:33:25] all do Christianity and we all follow Jesus. You have to, you have to then [00:33:30] shop around and pick the denomination that you feel like fits you the [00:33:35] best in some ways. And so it's really, it really sort of forces this almost consumer.
[00:33:39] [00:33:40] Um, and this, this choice thing that is very American, um, and very Western [00:33:45] anyway. Um, but I think that that creates a really tough challenge because to your [00:33:50] point, um, somebody becomes a believer and they're going to hear [00:33:55] pitch to them from family members and friends who've been praying for them their whole lives for them to come to faith.[00:34:00]
[00:34:00] Hey, come and join our particular brand. And so, and so I I've struggled with this. [00:34:05] I'm like, is denominationalism just pure evil? Is it just the sin of divisiveness that we've packaged [00:34:10] up? And we just, but, but then I started seeing it through a different lens. The lens I see [00:34:15] denominations is you want to have everyone, you can't just [00:34:20] practice Christianity.
[00:34:20] You have to have a set of traditions. You have to, you have to decide like, when are we going to meet? Or is [00:34:25] this going to be disciple making? You know, are we primarily committed to disciple making? um, [00:34:30] disciple making movement? Or are we really committed to, you know, worship [00:34:35] services and, and planting and growing a worship service ministry?
[00:34:39] And I think [00:34:40] that the answer to those questions are, are really answered through an apostolic blueprint. [00:34:45] Somebody at some point decided This, this is the way when I read the New Testament, what Jesus [00:34:50] is offering, um, what he's describing. This is how we do it. You know, Francis Chan [00:34:55] famously in his book, letters of the Church, talks about how he was trying to grow a mega [00:35:00] church, and then he kind of came to this realization that that wasn't what he saw in the New [00:35:05] Testament was, was, was was trying to promote.
[00:35:08] He's like Jesus, he didn't order [00:35:10] that. He used the example of. You know, it doesn't necessarily mean it's all bad, but if you go to a [00:35:15] restaurant and you order a steak and they serve you spaghetti. You're not going to necessarily say, well, spaghetti [00:35:20] sucks. You're going to say, I didn't order it, you know? And so he began to look at the new Testament.
[00:35:24] And I [00:35:25] think that he started to emerge into an apostolic state, which is [00:35:30] to begin to want to tinker with the blueprint, um, [00:35:35] and say, I don't want to follow that blueprint. I was handed that blueprint into the mega church blueprint. This is what everyone else was [00:35:40] doing. This is what I assume. This is when I went to seminary, this is what they talked about.
[00:35:43] And so, so I, I [00:35:45] think that one of the things that is actually happening is what we're branding is not [00:35:50] necessarily like some cool hipster version of the church. What you're actually trying to, [00:35:55] trying to figure out is who is the apostolic leader who is designing the blueprint. [00:36:00] Um, and that a lot of people don't realize that that's actually what they're picking.
[00:36:03] You know? And so when you go to [00:36:05] a Methodist church, what you're really saying is I am. Picking the apostolic [00:36:10] blueprint that was designed by John Wesley. Now he died, you know, a couple of hundred years ago. And so it hasn't really [00:36:15] been well updated since then. And most of the people that are current Methodists are trying [00:36:20] to follow his blueprint, but aren't really apostolic in that way.
[00:36:23] And so I think, I think that it's [00:36:25] likely getting corrupted. And this is what happens when. There isn't any kind of way to, to find [00:36:30] a, a new apostolically gifted person who can mess with the blueprint. And so what it sounds [00:36:35] like you guys are doing is saying, look, we, we might need to actually brand our apostolic blueprint [00:36:40] if people are going to, because they're going to, they're going to be given a choice, they're Americans.
[00:36:43] And we all, we [00:36:45] all have the choice. We need to make clear that we have a, we have our own wineskin. We have our [00:36:50] own choice for how to, how to do these traditions. And the way that we're going to [00:36:55] advocate for is disciple making movements. Um, and yeah, this is like [00:37:00] categorically, we don't talk about this, I think in proper terms, like, like that, that you, you have to [00:37:05] choose an apostolic blueprint.
[00:37:06] And And I don't think there's a perfect apostolic blueprint. I think we're, they're all [00:37:10] flawed in various ways, but some are probably more faithful to [00:37:15] what the New Testament is describing than others. And so it is an important decision and we need [00:37:20] to, we need to, we desperately need this gift, this sort of apostolic gift, [00:37:25] um, for how to, you know, How to know how to follow Jesus properly.
[00:37:28] I, so yeah, how do you think about [00:37:30] that? The, the gift of the kind of apostolic gift when it comes to, um, [00:37:35] you know, in a Western context, when you have in your village, like my, I live in a [00:37:40] town of 14, 000 people, fairly small town. For America, and we've got, you know, [00:37:45] probably 15 different apostolic blueprints that are all operating at the same time.
[00:37:48] Most of, most of whom are [00:37:50] from apostles that are, that have died 100 or 200 or 300 years ago and are not, are no longer [00:37:55] being updated, but just sort of like slowly, um, kind of corrupting from their [00:38:00] original, uh, their original source code.
[00:38:02] Isaac: Yeah, that's really [00:38:05] good. I, I, I never really thought about that way of thinking it, um, [00:38:10] about different apostolic blueprints.
[00:38:11] Yeah. Um, I've thought about it in the, [00:38:15] the idea of restorationism, like different ideas of the church have been restored, but the idea [00:38:20] of following different apps, that's actually really, I'm gonna have to actually meditate on that one a little bit. That's [00:38:25] really good. Um, I do feel like, um, one of the [00:38:30] Things I do feel is that, like, there is a greater body of Messiah [00:38:35] that we, as people who are part of the kingdom and have this kingdom view [00:38:40] and disciple making view of scriptures, that we also don't grow into [00:38:45] elitism where we feel like we're better than the rest of the body of Messiah, but we're actually [00:38:50] looking to bring the entire body of Messiah along with us.
[00:38:53] And [00:38:55] The way we've kind of like split that into two, as far as like there being 15 different apostolic [00:39:00] blueprints in the city is one. We're creating our own tribe, [00:39:05] you know, we're creating our own tribe where you know, like you taught me family, [00:39:10] like we're, we're raising up our own family. Well, then we're raising up our clan.
[00:39:14] [00:39:15] Well, we're raising up our tribe. Well, we can raise up our nation. Well, but our [00:39:20] nation is also helping other nations. You know, like [00:39:25] as we're raising up our own clan and tribe and building our own apostolic blueprint, that's [00:39:30] kingdom. We see these other clans and tribes and these people who have apostolic blueprints [00:39:35] that you were describing.
[00:39:36] And we can say, Hey, if you see something here, you [00:39:40] like, we're not enemies. Like I still see you as a brother in Christ. I still see you as a sister in [00:39:45] Christ. We can still learn from each other and you know, I can help you cattle. [00:39:50] You don't have to become part of our clan, but I can help you catalyze a deeper [00:39:55] kingdom meaning within even your own apostolic blueprint, which, which takes another apostolic [00:40:00] level, not only to develop your own episode blueprint, but to help others organize theirs,
[00:40:04] Jeremy: [00:40:05] right?
[00:40:05] This is why, like, you know, in our context, for example, and I've, [00:40:10] you know, gone to ministerial association meetings in my, in my city and. One of the things that I find [00:40:15] really interesting is, this is why I use the phrase that kind of they're following a dead [00:40:20] Apsalog blueprint, is it that there are some churches, like a church that was planted by a founding pastor, where [00:40:25] you actually have access to the person who's actively, who constructed the blueprint and who [00:40:30] actively has their hands on the blueprint.
[00:40:33] But I would say 90 percent of the [00:40:35] churches that I encounter, they're the people that actually leading them don't actually have [00:40:40] access to the blueprint, like, like a mainline denomination, for example, they don't have access to it. Like if they decided [00:40:45] to change the blueprint, they would have to quit their job, lose their ordination and join a [00:40:50] completely new denomination.
[00:40:51] And if you even go all the way up to like the, uh, you know, the, [00:40:55] the highest level of the denomination. There is an assumption that part of what happens is after an [00:41:00] apostle dies and passes on the blueprint to the next generation, then the people that, [00:41:05] that basically have access to that, people that, that take leadership of the denomination are actually the [00:41:10] guardians of the old blueprint.
[00:41:12] Like those are the people that end up in. with a lot of power and [00:41:15] influence. Um, you know, if you, if somebody like you or me were to walk into a, a mainline [00:41:20] church, like we're, we're, we're their worst nightmare. Right. Cause my, I'm going to start asking questions. Like, I'm like, why are you [00:41:25] doing that? Like, why, why should we do community in that way?
[00:41:27] Like, why, why are the chairs like that? Why aren't [00:41:30] we, why aren't we, why, why did you do small groups? Like, why did you just announce that? Why did you do, how did you decide to [00:41:35] preach that sermon? Like we're, you know, like, I'm going to ask every kind of annoying question about it. [00:41:40] And the person's going to be like, Like, what are you talking about?
[00:41:43] Like I'm pastoring a [00:41:45] church. I've I spent, I spent four or five, six years in seminary being trained to, [00:41:50] to basically execute against this blueprint. I don't, I don't get to decide those things. [00:41:55] I mean, I might be able to decide the color of the carpet or something, you know, maybe through a committee. Um, but [00:42:00] like, I can't, I don't have access to that blueprint.
[00:42:02] Um, and so this is, this is the, this is the profound [00:42:05] tension. I think that. That happens. Okay. So I love that rabbit hole. I just wanted to like explore that with you. [00:42:10] And I think that's, that's important, but I want to, I want to try to understand now, you [00:42:15] know, in terms of like, like I, I want to picture, and I loved the guy, I said this [00:42:20] thought experiment.
[00:42:20] You got a brand new person, um, that is, that came to faith. [00:42:25] I want them to, I want, I want to make a disciple that's going to get to the third, fourth, fifth generation. [00:42:30] Um, like that, that is the absolute thing I'm trying to understand. Like I, I, I [00:42:35] wanna, I wanna figure out what, what are the, what are the elements that, that are [00:42:40] likely to cause that to happen and what are the elements that are likely to, [00:42:45] um, that, that might be intuitive to me, but that are likely cause that not to happen.
[00:42:49] Um, [00:42:50] so what have you learned? Um, you can go either direction with it. What, what are things that, that are going [00:42:55] to really help? Um, and, and the way I'm really imparting life into this new disciple, [00:43:00] what are things that are going to likely cause them to, to multiply, [00:43:05] you know, into multiple generations and what's going to sterilize them?
[00:43:08] So we talked about one issue, which is, you [00:43:10] know, they, they end up adopting a blueprint that is, basically sterile by [00:43:15] design. Um, and yeah, that's going to cost problems. Um, but assuming that they, you know, they're, [00:43:20] they're like, no, I'm all in, I'll, I'll, I'll do it. You know, I'm going to do it the way that, that you're training [00:43:25] me.
[00:43:25] I can't wait to apprentice in, in the way that you are, you know, show me how to follow Jesus. Yeah. [00:43:30] What are the elements that you, do you, that you've learned that, that, that affect [00:43:35] multiplication?
[00:43:36] Isaac: Okay. So the first question I would ask is [00:43:40] what type of person. Are you discipling? Um, are you [00:43:45] starting a movement with?
[00:43:47] And, and it's really, this is probably one of the [00:43:50] most key and crucial points of a disciple making movement. [00:43:55] And, and that depends on which stage of the disciple making movement you're [00:44:00] in, or your network is in. So if you're on stage one, if you're in a completely new [00:44:05] area, um, stage one, you're, you, you have a team, you're praying, you're [00:44:10] going out, and you're looking for persons of peace.
[00:44:13] The key is, Am I [00:44:15] investing in the right person? Number one, [00:44:20] absolutely. Hands down. One of the biggest pitfalls. [00:44:25] of starting movements is investing initially, initially in, [00:44:30] in the people and wrong people.
[00:44:34] Jeremy: [00:44:35] Wrong people being that they're not, they're not a person of peace that they, they're, there's something [00:44:40] about like their makeup or that, that, that you can tell.
[00:44:44] That is not going to [00:44:45] become a movement.
[00:44:46] Isaac: Absolutely. And one of the reasons why is [00:44:50] because if we're in a new area or we're trying to start something new, one of the things [00:44:55] that we need to realize as apostolic people is that we are not [00:45:00] going to leave the movement in this area that we're starting a movement in.[00:45:05]
[00:45:05] We're not the, we're the foundations, we're not the leaders. Our job is to find the [00:45:10] indigenous people on the ground who have the ability to lead movement, and they're probably [00:45:15] not believers yet. And I'll tell you how important Paul considered this issue. [00:45:20] He considered it very important. Um, and this is a little bit of a [00:45:25] theological, uh, rabbit It's not a rabbit hole, it's actually a very important issue in disciple making.
[00:45:29] [00:45:30] Um, in Ephesians 4, Paul says he, um, he goes into the Scripture [00:45:35] and says, he who descended also ascended. He took captivity captive, and he gave gifts to [00:45:40] men, some to be apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelists, and pastors, for the equipping of the saints [00:45:45] through the work of the ministry until we all come to unity in faith.
[00:45:47] You guys know the Scripture, right? Right? Um, Ephesians [00:45:50] chapter four. So, uh, verse nine through the end. [00:45:55] Um, so when Paul is talking here, he's, he's talking about the [00:46:00] ascension of Yeshua. And he's quoting from the Psalms. [00:46:05] And he's saying, he who descended into hell also ascended. [00:46:10] And at his ascension, he took captivity captive and he gave gifts to men.
[00:46:14] And [00:46:15] what was the captivity that he was taking captive? Well, in the book of [00:46:20] Ephesians, it talks about the Ascension, and it says at the Ascension of Yeshua, [00:46:25] at His Ascension, He ascended above all the powers and principalities of the air, [00:46:30] right?
[00:46:30] Jeremy: Yes.
[00:46:31] Isaac: And so at the Ascension of Yeshua, the captivity that He [00:46:35] was taking captive was the powers, they were in captivity of the [00:46:40] powers and principalities of the air, in which Yeshua defeated those powers and [00:46:45] principalities through His Ascension.
[00:46:46] Right.
[00:46:47] Jeremy: Through the ascension, you would say instead of the, like, [00:46:50] like, as opposed to just the crucifixion, the resurrection, it was the ascension.
[00:46:53] Isaac: Yes, the [00:46:55] crucifixion overcame sin, the resurrection overcame death, and the ascension defeated the powers and the [00:47:00] principalities of the year. And that's what it says in Ephesians 4.
[00:47:04] It says [00:47:05] actually the entire book of Ephesians is talking about how the sentient overcome the principalities and the [00:47:10] powers, the entirety of the book of Ephesians. And so when he ascended to heaven, [00:47:15] it says he took captivity captive. Who were they captive by? They were held captive by the [00:47:20] powers and principalities of the air.
[00:47:21] Because remember he, um, so he took them captive [00:47:25] and then he gave gifts to men, some to be apostles, prophets, evangelists, teachers, and pastors. [00:47:30] Right? And so the question is, is those fivefold office or [00:47:35] functions of the ministry, who do they belong to before Yeshua ascended to the heaven? [00:47:40] Who do they belong to?
[00:47:42] Jeremy: to the, to the [00:47:45] principalities.
[00:47:45] Isaac: So how did those gifts function [00:47:50] before the ascension under whose authority to function?
[00:47:54] Jeremy: [00:47:55] Oh, under the Satan's authority, then
[00:47:57] Isaac: under the powers and principalities of [00:48:00] the air. So you actually have apostles, prophets, evangelists, teachers and [00:48:05] pastors that are functioning in their gift.
[00:48:08] God given giftings. [00:48:10] underneath the powers and the principalities of the air. [00:48:15] And what Yeshua did is he ascended to heaven and took those gifts [00:48:20] captive from the powers and principalities and gave them as gifts to his [00:48:25] church.
[00:48:26] Jeremy: Interesting. Wow. Well, this, this [00:48:30] kind of goes back to our conversation around the collusion between [00:48:35] sort of indigenous religious, like non, like pagan religion and [00:48:40] governments.
[00:48:40] And, you know, I, I remember when I learned that the word apostle was actually [00:48:45] a term for It's a kind of person in a, in a government that was, it was a common term in the [00:48:50] Roman world where, where an apostle would be sent out from the emperor and his ship would be called an [00:48:55] apostolate. And that was, that was like a, that was the, they kind of had the authority [00:49:00] from, from the emperor to, to establish things outside of, you know, to, [00:49:05] as they're expanding the kingdom of the, the political rule of that particular [00:49:10] group.
[00:49:10] So, so you're saying, okay, so, so the, the principalities had, um, they had the [00:49:15] authority. They would use this authority to, to create these five different kinds [00:49:20] of ruling elements in a society. And Jesus in his [00:49:25] ascension took authority away from the, uh, the ruling powers of the air. And [00:49:30] he, he took those five, uh, those five offices and handed [00:49:35] them to the church.
[00:49:36] Isaac: Yes.
[00:49:37] Jeremy: Okay.
[00:49:37] Isaac: Exactly.
[00:49:39] Jeremy: And
[00:49:39] Isaac: [00:49:40] so, um, and then you look at what those offices look like, [00:49:45] or those functions look like under the Ascended Yeshua, who sat on the [00:49:50] right hand of God, He ascended to the right hand of God above, far above every power and principality, right? [00:49:55] And ruler. Um, when he, when you look at it, you read in the rest of Ephesians that [00:50:00] they equip the saints to do the work of the ministry.
[00:50:02] Yeshua's the head. [00:50:05] And they allow every body and function, uh, every body part in to, [00:50:10] to actually function every part, not just one, every part. So the, the [00:50:15] purpose of the five old functions underneath The [00:50:20] leadership of Yeshua and underneath the ascended leadership of [00:50:25] Yeshua is to release and free every believer to do the [00:50:30] work in the ministry and to train them to do it.
[00:50:32] That's basically what Ephesians 4 says, if I would summarize [00:50:35] it. So if you have the fivefold ministry operating outside of the [00:50:40] authority of Yeshua, then you look, it looks like selfish ambition. [00:50:45] It looks like authoritarianism. It looks like I'm creating bottlenecks of leadership. [00:50:50] And Yeshua freed us from that.
[00:50:53] So whenever I go to a new [00:50:55] area, to answer your question, whenever I go to a new area, and I look to [00:51:00] make disciples, and I'm looking, what I'm looking for is I'm saying, God, give me, I [00:51:05] actually play an intentional prayer, God, give me, show [00:51:10] me who these five functions are in this society of non believers. [00:51:15] that I can free them from the powers of the principalities of the air and [00:51:20] establish the foundation of the church in this area and the disciple making movement in this area.
[00:51:24] [00:51:25] So this is why it's key that we find the right people.
[00:51:28] Jeremy: You're actually looking for [00:51:30] a current person operating as a essentially a pagan [00:51:35] or political apostle, prophet, teacher, evangelist, [00:51:40] or pastor.
[00:51:41] Isaac: Yes, 100%. A [00:51:45] lot of times I can go into a society and I can recognize these people. And I'm like, wow, they have an apostolic gifting.[00:51:50]
[00:51:50] They're smarter. I know a Muslim guy in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. He's still not a believer yet. I'm praying for him [00:51:55] every day. He literally runs a Muslim youth group [00:52:00] and he trains the youth to start their own [00:52:05] humanitarian organization where they run the organization. They run the, they raise the funds. And these are high schoolers.[00:52:10]
[00:52:10] And all he does is in the background. And I told some of the pastors in town, I said, [00:52:15] this guy understands apostolic ministry more than any other pastor or leader in this town. And he's a [00:52:20] Muslim youth leader in Tennessee. And so I recognize here is [00:52:25] an apostolic person that is under the powers and principalities of the air that needs to be [00:52:30] freed and be given as a gift to the church.
[00:52:33] And this is the type of person I would [00:52:35] want to pray into, and so that's why Paul said in 2 Timothy 2. 2, the things you've heard and [00:52:40] seen in me, give to faithful men that will also be able to train others, right? The 2. 2. 2 [00:52:45] principle. We're not called to train every man, we're called to train faithful [00:52:50] men.
[00:52:50] Jeremy: yeah, that's what I was going to ask you because I think, I think that is this a [00:52:55] unique way that an apostolic person who's trying to reach a new [00:53:00] area needs to think like if, if somebody is listening to this and they're like, I don't think I'm [00:53:05] one of those people. Um, how do I make disciples? Is it very different the way you would think [00:53:10] about how.
[00:53:11] The average person gets discipled versus like maybe a [00:53:15] person breaking into a new community.
[00:53:18] Isaac: A hundred percent. You [00:53:20] hit the, yes, it's an apostolic way of thinking, but I would say that every new [00:53:25] believer that is making disciples needs to do it underneath an apostolic group [00:53:30] blueprint. to, to be effective.[00:53:35]
[00:53:35] Either they need to be apostolic themselves or they need to be operating with [00:53:40] an apostolic group of people. Um, which is another point. [00:53:45] You can't make disciples by yourself without being part of a team or a family or a tribe. [00:53:50] Because,
[00:53:52] Jeremy: because of the functioning of these five [00:53:55] different gifts and how that works in a, in a region.
[00:53:58] Isaac: Okay. Exactly. So [00:54:00] there's, um, There are some people who are called to be apostolic that are called to [00:54:05] create foundations, and they may be loners or with just a few people doing it. That's [00:54:10] specific for an apostolic role. That's not every believer. Every believer is called to make disciples, but [00:54:15] every believer is called to make disciples underneath blueprint.
[00:54:19] It doesn't mean [00:54:20] you're underneath the authority of an apostle. It means that you are giving yourself to a blueprint [00:54:25] because you're not apostolic and you're leaning on that gifting. You're leaning on the [00:54:30] gifting of the apostolically gifted people in your area. So you're building on a right foundation.
[00:54:34] Jeremy: [00:54:35] Yeah, it just, I think, I think that that for so many people and I, I feel [00:54:40] that the, that gift that kind of apostolic gift has been [00:54:45] like sometimes when people ask about like what, what is the main problem in the West? What's the [00:54:50] main, if you put your finger on like the one problem for why discipleship is not [00:54:55] happening in the West with people.
[00:54:57] so many millions of believers and [00:55:00] seminaries and churches and billions of dollars. And I heard recently that, you know, [00:55:05] we have to spend 1. 5 million for every conversion in the West. It's just like [00:55:10] so expensive, our institutions. Um, and so like, and so when [00:55:15] people ask me that, I say, my, if I had to put my finger on one thing, I would say, we have [00:55:20] made a collective decision to disrespect the apostolic gifting.[00:55:25]
[00:55:25] And like, so people that have this gift, um, that ask [00:55:30] all the annoying questions about, is this going to continue? Or is this going to work? Or how do we like, and they're, they're like [00:55:35] mining the scriptures for like, you know, for, is there, is there sort of a divinely sort of [00:55:40] described way of bringing, bringing the kingdom to an area?
[00:55:43] Oh, I see all kinds of evidence of that in [00:55:45] scripture. Um, I see lots of patterns. They don't, none of these seem to be utilized [00:55:50] anymore. That's kind of weird. Like you keep asking these kinds of questions and again, you're the, you're the least popular [00:55:55] person in any established institution because you know, these, these people, they, they, they're [00:56:00] not thinking that way and they don't have the authority necessarily to change things.
[00:56:02] And so this disrespect has caused, I [00:56:05] think so many apostolically gifted believers to either go to the mission field or go into [00:56:10] business. That's where I find these people generally. They like, they find systems and like, and they can, [00:56:15] they can use that gift and it's fully released in the context of, you know, an [00:56:20] entrepreneurial endeavor, or it can be fully, fully released in a unreached area, [00:56:25] um, of the world as a missionary, but the one place where they can't [00:56:30] function at all.
[00:56:31] And if they try, they're going to get, you know, badly. Um, [00:56:35] rebuked or just constantly dismissed is in a more established [00:56:40] area, like in Europe or in any Western country. So yeah, that's, I hear what you're [00:56:45] saying and this is super helpful. I think we had to, so you're saying, look, if you're [00:56:50] listening to this and you are not a, like you're not apostolically gifted.[00:56:55]
[00:56:55] If you really want to see a movement happen in your city. Then you need to [00:57:00] find an apostolic, you need to, you need to begin a movement through an [00:57:05] apostolic blueprint. And we need to find these people and we need to equip them and release [00:57:10] them because they, they are the thing that's like standing between us and any kind of real [00:57:15] movement in an area.
[00:57:15] This is why Christianity just shrinks so predictably when [00:57:20] we just are operating off of old and dead blueprints. that are getting [00:57:25] increasingly corrupted and further and further away from their original apostolic [00:57:30] founding and the context of their founding.
[00:57:33] Isaac: Absolutely. [00:57:35] And if there's no apostolic blueprint in your area, the best thing [00:57:40] you can do if you're listening to this podcast is number one, be obedient to Yeshua [00:57:45] yourself.
[00:57:47] Number two, make disciples. You [00:57:50] probably won't start a movement. That's okay. Making disciples is a command of [00:57:55] Yeshua. You need to do it, whether it starts a movement or it doesn't start a movement. It's [00:58:00] a command of Yeshua. And to be an obedient disciple of Yeshua, you need to make disciples. [00:58:05] Number three, start a prayer movement.[00:58:10]
[00:58:10] with like minded people, asking God to send apostolic people [00:58:15] and bring them together to help start a movement in your [00:58:20] area. Maybe God will raise you up to be apostolic, you didn't even know it, but if you don't [00:58:25] feel like you're apostolically gifted, you can start with living the life of an obedient disciple [00:58:30] and making disciples where you're at, even if you have to go to a local church.[00:58:35]
[00:58:35] and do it outside the local church. You know, be a part of the local church, love the people there, [00:58:40] go do the church thing with them, and make disciples outside of the [00:58:45] church. You may not start a movement, but at least you're being obedient to Jesus. [00:58:50] And, um, and whenever God brings in a movement minded people in [00:58:55] town, you can pray that in, and you can join them, and join your [00:59:00] giftings with their giftings.
[00:59:01] And yeah, but I would say that movements, because [00:59:05] we talked about movements specifically, usually are started by apostolic people. They're not [00:59:10] started by individuals that want to make disciples. Making [00:59:15] disciples are started by individuals. Like, the apostle doesn't [00:59:20] necessarily get more rewards than the person making disciples in the coming kingdom.[00:59:25]
[00:59:25] In the coming kingdom, you're going to be held responsible for using the talents the Lord [00:59:30] gave you. Yep. And so if you're just a, if you feel like you're just a simple believer, [00:59:35] make disciples. Yes. Even if it doesn't start a movement. So I don't know if that clarifies. Yeah, that's helpful.
[00:59:39] Jeremy: [00:59:40] Would you say Isaac that the prayer movement is that, is that, is that, is that around the [00:59:45] need to overthrow?
[00:59:47] Or to, like, kick out [00:59:50] the residual powers and principalities, I mean, because at the end of [00:59:55] Ephesians, uh, basically Paul's like, you're going to have a fight on your hands. It's just like, [01:00:00] you know, there's all these powers and you're going to, you're gonna need all this armor. And then you're going to pray, pray, pray.
[01:00:04] He has that, [01:00:05] you know, passage where he says, pray over and over again, pray in the spirit, pray in all occasions. So he, it [01:00:10] does feel like a warfare kind of prayer. Um, yeah. Is that, is that what you find? Like it was [01:00:15] because of, if that helped, that's very helpful to think about. Okay, we have all these, [01:00:20] all these people that are basically supposed to, they're supposed to be a part of the [01:00:25] kingdom of God.
[01:00:25] They're supposed to be obedient to Jesus. They are, they are sort of the ruling, [01:00:30] um, or the equipping, um, like elements of the church, but they're locked in the kingdom of [01:00:35] darkness right now. And so we're praying for their release. I mean, is that, is that the kind of [01:00:40] prayer, like what, what kind of, What is the purpose of prayer?
[01:00:42] How do you organize that or think about that [01:00:45] in that really early stage of a movement before anything really takes off?
[01:00:49] Isaac: [01:00:50] Um, I would say yes, with the powers and principalities, but I'd be careful there [01:00:55] because if you, uh, this is an issue that I've had and spoken [01:01:00] often in the prayer movement is if we fit like the prayer movement would be like the air [01:01:05] force and then the apostolic and [01:01:10] evangelistic movement are the ground forces, right?
[01:01:14] [01:01:15] And the prayer movement, I would say, is under the prophetic function. It's under, you know, the [01:01:20] foundation of the churches on apostles and prophets, right? And let's put the intercession or prayer movement under [01:01:25] the prophetic gifting. under the prophetic establishment because usually prayer [01:01:30] people are very prophetic and vice versa prophetic people are very prayerful it usually goes together [01:01:35] um and so the the [01:01:40] the air force like right now there's a war in israel and their basic strategy [01:01:45] is pound the areas and then send in the ground forces if they send in the ground [01:01:50] forces before pounding the areas the ground forces are going to get pummeled but if they only [01:01:55] use the air force without sending the ground force which is what they've done for years the enemy just [01:02:00] regroups and actually gets angrier.
[01:02:03] So the ground forces and [01:02:05] the air force need to operate together. So prayer movements and apostolic movements need to [01:02:10] operate together. They can't operate separately. A prayer movement that's not [01:02:15] concentrated on apostolic ground forces is ultimately [01:02:20] going to destroy things. They're just going to be recreated because in order [01:02:25] to, when you overthrow one government, You have to [01:02:30] establish another and and if you overthrow a government [01:02:35] And you don't establish another, then you're creating a vacuum of power.[01:02:40]
[01:02:41] And that's what happened with ISIS is that you had, [01:02:45] um, basically the Arab spring caused, um, [01:02:50] the overthrow of the Assad regime in Syria and many of the territories and the [01:02:55] intentional purpose of it was not to create ISIS. The intentional [01:03:00] purpose of the overthrow of Assad in those regimes was to create a Kurdish autonomous region.[01:03:05]
[01:03:05] Maybe the military of Syria, which was more secular, the Free Syrian Army, [01:03:10] would come in and create a more democratic rule. But what happened is [01:03:15] that those smaller forces did not have a unified plan to create a new culture. [01:03:20] And ISIS did. So all that vacuum of [01:03:25] power that was overthrown when Assad's government got overthrown, [01:03:30] and also parts of Iraq were overthrown when Saddam got overthrown, all those [01:03:35] pockets of vacuums of power that had no reestablished authority, ISIS [01:03:40] came in and grabbed that vacuum of power.
[01:03:43] And so we have to be [01:03:45] very careful when we overthrow one, like the powers and [01:03:50] principalities of the year that we don't have a plan to, to create, otherwise we're [01:03:55] creating a vacuum of power. And that's basically what she was said when he said, when you cast out a demon and you [01:04:00] don't bring, you know, you don't bring your spirit in it, it gets seven more, [01:04:05] basically what he's talking about is a vacuum of power.
[01:04:07] Jeremy: Wow.
[01:04:08] Isaac: That's really
[01:04:08] Jeremy: helpful. Yeah. [01:04:10] So. Have you found, um, and then I'll let you go after this. I want to, I want to do this [01:04:15] again, because this is so helpful. I know we just scratched the surface getting kind of to the foundations [01:04:20] or kind of the, the very beginning stages of disciple making. Um, but I, I really think that this [01:04:25] prayer movement topic is something I need a lot more help understanding.
[01:04:28] So, um, [01:04:30] so let's say like in an area like mine, there are Kind of going back, we [01:04:35] talked about how denominations have different apostolic gifts. I would say another, another thing that I would say about [01:04:40] less denominations and more, uh, church plants, but I've just, what I've, what I've [01:04:45] seen is a lot of church plants tend to have.
[01:04:47] Uh, the foundation of one of [01:04:50] these five so a church plant that's like led by somebody who's more pastoral You [01:04:55] know, you can tell by almost by the architecture. They have a giant fellowship hall Somebody who's [01:05:00] prophetic they've got usually like, you know, the big altar the uh, somebody who's more of [01:05:05] a teacher There's classrooms everywhere Um in the churches that they architect, you know, somebody's more [01:05:10] evangelistic.
[01:05:10] They have this enormous You know, foyer lobby with like free coffee and [01:05:15] trying to make it almost like your, you know, the, your front porch is, is, uh, is, is, [01:05:20] is right there before you go into the worship service. Anyway, you've got all of these different, these different people [01:05:25] locked into different churches all over the city.
[01:05:26] And so there are definitely prophets in my city that I think [01:05:30] have an incredibly strong prayer and intercession calling. And you're describing the [01:05:35] importance of it being collab, like they're being sort of a coordination between the apostolic and the [01:05:40] prophetic. Um, you need these two gifts to function alongside each other.
[01:05:44] So, [01:05:45] um, so my question is like, it seems like [01:05:50] the profits it's some of these people are locked in, into different churches, [01:05:55] um, and, and they're serving churches in some way. Um, is that, is that a, is that an [01:06:00] appropriate place to look for some of these, um, gifts and just say, Hey, let's, let's [01:06:05] start to coordinate more together, um, and let's work on a more city [01:06:10] level.
[01:06:10] Um, I'm going to, I feel called to launch a disciple making [01:06:15] movement here in Cincinnati. Um, but I don't feel like I'm going to get anywhere without the air force. Have [01:06:20] you seen how that coordinates? Cause I definitely know some of these people. Um, but I, [01:06:25] I sense that part of the challenge is that they're also serving.
[01:06:29] [01:06:30] Um, and I think they might be willing to, you know, to participate [01:06:35] in a coordinated assault on the, uh, the enemy stronghold in our city. [01:06:40] But yeah, I'm just curious how you've seen that, um, that function, because I, I'm very interested [01:06:45] in, in that step because I feel like that's kind of where we're at right now.
[01:06:48] Isaac: Yeah. I remember [01:06:50] talking to Victor Chowdhury about this and I said, Victor, [01:06:55] um, Like when you find people, I noticed that you [01:07:00] have some people that come out of traditional churches that are now, um, [01:07:05] that are now serving with you and making lots of disciples. And Victor told me, yeah, they [01:07:10] were, they were actually confined and their gifting wasn't recognized in the traditional churches [01:07:15] and they weren't functioning as they were meant to be.
[01:07:17] And if they don't continue to function as they're meant [01:07:20] to be, Um, cause I was asking him about basically transfer growth and steep [01:07:25] Chile, even with us as disciple making movement people. And he says, if you see, they're not operating and they're [01:07:30] gifting, still those sheep in the name of [01:07:35] Jesus, he doesn't do it with everybody, but if he [01:07:40] says he sees ungrown potential.
[01:07:42] Yes. And, and those people are not [01:07:45] fulfilling their potential. He has no problem for the sake of the kingdom. Okay. Okay. In his [01:07:50] area to release their potential to release them to go ahead.
[01:07:53] Jeremy: Yeah. And any thoughts? [01:07:55] Okay. Let's say I have, there's some prophetic. We get to be like, I'm all in, we want to do this.
[01:07:59] [01:08:00] Like, like how, how did they get, uh, equipped or how did they [01:08:05] start to function? How does the apostolic and the prophetic start to function together? Is this something like, I know in like [01:08:10] acts or with these prayer meetings between various gifts, you know, you have that in, what is it? [01:08:15] X 13 or whatever, like at the beginning of, Paul and Barnabas's ministry.
[01:08:18] Yeah. How [01:08:20] have you seen this function?
[01:08:21] Isaac: Well, I would, um, what we did in Murfreesboro [01:08:25] is we just had a monthly strategy meeting.
[01:08:28] Jeremy: Okay.
[01:08:29] Isaac: [01:08:30] And in the monthly strategy meeting, we brought all the, the prophetic people together [01:08:35] with the apostolic people. It was just basically episode for movement. [01:08:40] And we would spend a lot of the time praying and a lot of time with the [01:08:45] whiteboards.
[01:08:45] Okay. Of course, the prayer warriors wanted more prayer and the whiteboard people wanted [01:08:50] more whiteboard. The apostolic people wanted more whiteboard, and we just did it together, [01:08:55] and we prayed, and we listened to the Lord, and part of it came [01:09:00] from gifting of apostolic strategy, and part of it came from prophetic insight from the [01:09:05] prophetic people on the ground, and we just learned to submit and love one another, and sometimes we got on each other's [01:09:10] nerves, because apostolic people love structure, and prophetic people [01:09:15] hate structure, and that's the perfect balance.
[01:09:17] It's like husband and wife, right? Um, [01:09:20] it's the perfect balance and that's actually part of the iron sharpening iron [01:09:25] that we need to see movement and we need to be intentional about coming together for the [01:09:30] purpose of strategy for a city that's intentionally both apostolic and prophetic [01:09:35] that we don't lean too much on structure that we forget about the Holy Spirit,
[01:09:39] Jeremy: man.
[01:09:39] [01:09:40] Yes, that's critical. Yeah, that it seems inevitable that if you just get a bunch of [01:09:45] apostolic people together. It'll be all whiteboards, no Holy Spirit. And if you get a bunch of prophets [01:09:50] together, it'll be all prayer. And like, what are we doing now? Like let's, [01:09:55] yeah, yeah. That's [01:10:00] yeah. I, I think that that's actually, I would almost say that that's what Victor [01:10:05] mentioned, these various gifts being locked into different, different [01:10:10] blueprints that are really designed around their gift.
[01:10:12] I think that's part of what makes them comfortable [01:10:15] in that place. A lot of times you you'll have. Uh, like a founding pastor [01:10:20] who's, you know, very happy in one level in a, in a particular church [01:10:25] setting because they've actually designed the church around their gift. You know, we're, we're, we're the prophecy church, we're the teaching [01:10:30] church, we're the pastoral church.
[01:10:31] And so we all, we all have to give up something [01:10:35] to decide to coordinate and collaborate together. Um, but part of [01:10:40] what, you know, Is going to happen is, is movement and maybe, maybe this is, this is why movement doesn't [01:10:45] happen in the West or doesn't happen in our cities. This is, this is like another thing that's kind of filling in.
[01:10:49] Like I said, I [01:10:50] think, I think that we're disrespecting, I mentioned disrespecting this one gift, the [01:10:55] apostolic gift. You know, I've just personally experienced, you know, that in so many different ways, [01:11:00] uh, and just seeing that happen in so many different times. Um, but I, I think part of what you're really pointing out is, [01:11:05] yeah, that that's an issue, but that might be like issue one, you release those apostolic people and they're [01:11:10] still alone.
[01:11:11] Like if they don't have the prophetic right there helping, you know, [01:11:15] launch the movement, then you're going to, you're going to really not experience the power of the Holy [01:11:20] spirit in what you're attempting to do in that city. Um, that one, two punch is [01:11:25] critical. So it was super helpful, Isaac. I love, I love this conversation.
[01:11:29] This is exactly [01:11:30] what I need. Cause you guys listening to this, this is, you know, part of what I want to do is take you along the [01:11:35] ride as I talk to various people and just learn, you know, where my blind [01:11:40] spots are, um, as somebody who wants to see a movement happen in my city and other cities. [01:11:45] And we're still so much a prototype.
[01:11:47] We're not ready to. You know, [01:11:50] really aggressively, um, export what we're doing. Um, [01:11:55] we have various cities that were, you know, like laboratories, but, but man, we [01:12:00] were, we're just so far away from the biblical blueprint of church. I've spent a lot of time [01:12:05] trying to understand and restore the biblical blueprint of family.
[01:12:07] I feel further down the road in terms of [01:12:10] understanding with that, but I've spent far more time. I'm trying to understand the answer to this [01:12:15] question, and I feel much further from getting to a really, [01:12:20] um, clear answer. Um, I, I feel like I'm getting closer, but, but I still have a long ways to go. So this [01:12:25] has been super helpful.
[01:12:25] So yeah, Isaac, any last things you want to say that, that this is stirred up before we go and [01:12:30] then I'll, I'll, um, schedule another time and we'll keep this conversation going.
[01:12:33] Isaac: Yeah. I [01:12:35] just want to encourage everyone that I, as somebody who knows [01:12:40] Jeremy for a long time and sees his passion for. Making [01:12:45] disciples and, um, and seeing the blueprint even of story form life [01:12:50] and what you've done with that and how that's actually strengthened families and made [01:12:55] disciples.
[01:12:55] I just want to encourage everyone listening and Jeremy as well that this, this is a good [01:13:00] blueprint. It can be tweaked, it can be understood, but this is very, these are [01:13:05] normal growing pains of starting movements. And just like there's normal, like [01:13:10] you said, there's normal growing pains of building families.
[01:13:12] And, and you've done that very well. So I just want to [01:13:15] encourage people, those of you who want to join Jeremy, I just want to encourage you that the blueprint they [01:13:20] have story form life, um, what they're doing with 10, 000 houses. It's a great. [01:13:25] Blueprint. And it's a great, um, it's a great, uh, blueprint to join [01:13:30] and to come alongside of, so, yeah, that's all I wanted to say.
[01:13:33] Jeremy: That's awesome, man. [01:13:35] Well, thanks, Isaac. This has been a great conversation. I'll, uh, I'll be back in touch. Um, blessings to [01:13:40] you and your family and thank you so much for sewing into me and into us. Um, I know this has [01:13:45] been. Very mutual in terms of just like, we're, this has been such a fruitful relationship, [01:13:50] um, to be able to be comparing notes and there's so much more, I'm [01:13:55] excited to, to dive into with you, but, um, we'll, uh, we'll, we'll, we'll pick it up next [01:14:00] time.
[01:14:00] Isaac: Great. Thank you, Jeremy.
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