[00:00:00] Art Thomas: in all discipleship scenarios, the gospel is the answer to everything. Someone wants to be a better husband.
[00:00:07] Okay. Well, what do you do? You die to self and you let the spirit of God express the life of Jesus through you. Um, you want to be a better parent? Die to self. Let the spirit live through you. You want to be a better employee or a better boss? Die to self. Let the spirit live through you. And, and just trust him.
[00:00:23] It's by, by grace through faith. So the discipleship process is helping people to identify whatever gaps in the gospel exist in their own thinking, Hey everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. I am joined today by Art Thomas. So I'm excited to chat with Art. I just mentioned to him that I was on a coaching call, a 1000 houses,, house for community coaching call. And, one of our friends, Jonathan Harms, he was like, Oh, I've been learning a lot from Art Thomas.
[00:01:43] Jeremy Pryor: And, uh, I was like, Oh, let me check out. I guess he was starting to describe art. Some of what you guys are doing and the Detroit area. And I was like, I really want to understand better. Um, you know what you guys are doing? One of the things that that art has done is, written a book called gospel houses, how everyday Christians can make disciples at home.
[00:02:01] which is, an amazing, Uh, like that's, that is the dead center of really what I'm trying to understand best about how do we do this well. So I'm excited to jump into, um, your guys story and, uh, and how you guys have, have been working on practicing, uh, developing these gospel houses. Um, but first of all, just, just so we put it out there at the very beginning, how do people get the book?
[00:02:24] If they want to, they hear something here and they're like, Oh, I want to dive deeper into this.
[00:02:28] Art Thomas: Yeah. Uh, it's on Amazon, Audible, Kindle, all their gospel houses. I'm Thomas. Yep. Awesome.
[00:02:36] Jeremy Pryor: All right. Gospel houses. Go check that out. If you, if you guys are excited to, to dive deeper into what, um, uh, arts community has been up to.
[00:02:43] So yeah, take me, uh, tell me a little bit about your story, art. When did you get excited about thinking about, you know, church disciple making in this way? Tell me a little bit about the backstory.
[00:02:52] Art Thomas: Yeah, uh, well, it started way back when I was like, I'm 40 now. When I was 19, I helped plant a church in a little rural community.
[00:03:01] And the pastor there, uh, he gave us permission to think way outside the box. We went and visited every church in town that was already there. Studied what they were doing well. And then he said, uh, now let's not do any of those things because they're already reaching the people that those things are going to reach.
[00:03:17] How do we reach the ones that would never set foot in one of those churches? Uh, the ones who feel like if they did, the roof would cave, cave in on them. You're right. And, uh, so he was like, let's, let's think like everything's on the table. Right. And, uh, and so we came up with a pretty unique expression of church, but it gave me this permission to think beyond.
[00:03:38] What I had grown up in. And then I was reading this book, uh, many of you may have seen it. It's called the heavenly man, the story of Chinese brother Yoon in China. And, and, uh, this, this tremendous movement of house churches that was happening there, this was in 2005. And I was like. Why? I mean, I'm, I'm looking at what they're doing and I'm like, they, they're not, they don't have sound systems.
[00:04:01] They don't have buildings. They don't, you know, they have nothing. What I have, I'm at this time, I'm driving around the church's whole sound system in the back of my Ford Focus wagon. And I'm thinking they're doing so much more with so much less. Why is nobody doing that here? So then I started looking, is anybody doing that here?
[00:04:19] And I found a few books on house churches and read into them and kind of saw the, the philosophy behind it. And what does healthy community look like? This was back in 2005 when this was kind of rare. Um, and most of the stigma of house church was these are just disgruntled people who left the big church and, you know, it's a cult or whatever, you know, that's how people thought.
[00:04:41] But these books were compelling to me and I went to my pastor. I was actually living an hour away from the church plant. And, uh, I said, Hey, listen, I'll keep leading worship here and leading the youth group, but is it okay with you? If I start one of these house churches at my end of town, because the depth of relationships that I'm reading about, I can't do from an hour away and my pastor, God bless him.
[00:05:04] He goes, buddy, it's all kingdom go for it. And so, uh, with his emotional security and blessing. Uh, I, I, my girlfriend, who's now my wife and I started a little house church with my Baptist coworker, uh, in her parents basement, my wife's or my girlfriend's parents basement. And, um, that quickly just exploded.
[00:05:26] I mean, we were reaching coworkers and, and friends and neighbors. And, uh, it got to a point where we had Our at that time, I really only understood growth because I'd only ever been in conventional church. I didn't understand multiplication. So we had our central hub house church and a men's group and a women's group and about, I think it was six or seven Bible studies in workplaces, about 40 people involved altogether.
[00:05:52] Um, but none of those other groups were house churches, uh, then my girlfriend and I got engaged and I felt like we should be going to the same church and through prayer felt led to go back to the church that had launched us out four years earlier, uh, to that rural community where my girlfriend now fiance was, uh, uh, still attending.
[00:06:11] And, uh, long story short, I ended up on staff there, which. I was volunteer at the, at the rural community. I had no vision for vocational ministry. I'm like, I'm just going to be a Christian who makes disciples. That's what we do. But, uh, I wound up on staff there, part of student ministries department. And my pastor wisely said, Hey, you know, you can only really devote so much time to any project.
[00:06:36] And one of these ministries is going to suffer on the altar of the other. So either keep doing that thing with all those young adults, which I think is awesome. And I love it, or hand that off to somebody and come join our staff. And my wife and I prayed, and I really felt I was supposed to join the staff and About two years in, I started to feel like a rat in a cage.
[00:06:58] I was like, I'm sitting here filling out receipt paperwork for a youth event. It's going to bring a hundred kids in and, you know, 50 of them will raise their hands for salvation and then I'm never going to see him again. And then, uh, and I'm like, I'm spending all this money and I'm going, I baptized 12 people in my bathtub in a year.
[00:07:18] And I've been here two years and haven't baptized anyone. And I started to really, uh, I don't know, feel it heavy and, uh, to also truncate a very long story about, uh, about nine months later. Um, I, my family and I, we launched into traveling ministry. Just through the leading of the Lord and at that time, uh, at the same time launched a house church again and continued attending that big church.
[00:07:45] We're still friends with them today. Um, and, and they actually helped with the launch of, of the roots church network. Uh, that's happening now, but, um, but we started this house church that was back in April, 2011. And so, uh, we, we've been going at it ever since that, uh, little by little evolved and grew and we would try out, you know, it was, it was like, I was looking all over the United States for where's this working.
[00:08:11] And at the time, the only place I could find a genuinely. rapidly multiplying movement that I could see back in 2011. There's probably others out there, but maybe we're under the radar, at least not under my nose, um, was at a military base somewhere. And I'm like, well, of course it works for them. These guys know how to follow orders and like, they like structure.
[00:08:34] It's very regimented structure and everything. And I'm like, That structure would kill me. I'd hate that. So I started really looking in the scriptures and and and Having already learned that I can think outside the box about church. I started dreaming and uh, We landed on basically using first corinthians 14 26 as a model Which is when you come together each of you has a song a word of instruction a revelation a tongue and interpretation Everything must be done so the church can be built up So he said, all right, it's got to be a highly interactive meeting where everybody can operate in the gifts of the spirit.
[00:09:09] And my job in, in facilitating that kind of meeting is not to preach a sermon. It's not to just have a big church service in a little living room, right? But instead it's to facilitate that dialogue where we all are being disciples of Jesus. And sometimes he disciples me through you. And sometimes he disciples you through me.
[00:09:32] And as the body of Christ comes together and expresses what the Holy Spirit wants to reveal through them, Jesus is discipling us. And, uh, and so we started to lean into that model and little by little, uh, multiplied the first time, uh, in, I think it was 2015. Um, and then the next time I think was 2017, if I remember right.
[00:09:53] But basically, um, in 2015, my friend James and I, who had just, he had just started that second house church, we were in India. Uh, I was, I was, I do some, uh, documentary filmmaking. And so I was, I was there in India filming, filming this elderly evangelist who was traveling around. It was great. But, um, while I was there, we had this like six or seven hours of just downtime and James and I started to dream.
[00:10:17] I said, what, what do you think it would look like if we took these two little house churches that we've got? And we organized them as an official. Church organization, but kept doing house church. So I'm like, I still feel led to travel and preach in different churches all over, and I don't think I'm supposed to stop that.
[00:10:35] So we need to not meet on Sunday morning. And, uh, I think we should have a team based leadership model so that it, if I'm not there, everything still runs smoothly. And we just started dreaming, putting all these pieces together, came back to my pastor at the time and, and said, here's this wild, crazy idea I've got.
[00:10:55] And we're, our church was part of the Assemblies of God and he said, Hey, listen, man, uh, if you take this idea to the district right now, they're not going to get it. He goes, I'll be honest with you. I don't get it. But I feel like you're, you're passionate and I really feel like it's the Lord. So here's my advice.
[00:11:10] Do a slow organic roll out of this thing. You can ask anybody from my church to join you. I trust God to fill their seats. I'm not worried about it. And, uh, see what God does. If it falls on its face, no harm done. No one knew you were planting a church anyway. And, uh, if it takes off and you got three, four or five of these groups, now you come to the district and say, here's a thing.
[00:11:31] Can we be a church? He goes, they'll eat it up.
[00:11:33] Jeremy Pryor: Yes.
[00:11:34] Art Thomas: Brilliant advice that he gave. So it was a little bit of a slow go, but a long story short in August, 2019, uh, we started with Uh, three house churches and about 40 people. Um, and uh, then a few months later there was this, uh, something happened in 2020. I forget what that was,
[00:11:54] Uh, but during that time,
[00:11:56] Jeremy Pryor: we're all trying to
[00:11:56] Art Thomas: recover from that. Yeah. Yeah. Right. During that time, we doubled in size. Mm-Hmm. Wow. And suddenly all these, uh, pastors who were looking at us, a little side eyed, like we were doing something weird, were calling me for advice, . It's like we went from fringe to cutting edge in a matter of a month.
[00:12:14] Wow. And, uh. Long story short, from, from, uh, August 2019 to right now, which it's, it's about to be the new year when we're recording this of, uh, going into 2025, um, and, uh, we've got about, uh, 16 house churches and about 300 people. Wow. Um, so there's, there's been this multiplication that's happening and, uh, God's moving the, the same leadership team we started with is still with us five and a half years later, which is unheard of in church circles.
[00:12:45] Um, we've still got, uh, we had those 40 people. And I think, uh, this August we were looking at the roster and something like, Uh, about three quarters of them are still here and the other quarters, people who've moved away for various reasons or whatever. So it's like, okay, we got something healthy. Lives are being changed.
[00:13:05] New disciples are being made. Um, we're seeing a lot of people who are just burned out on church. They're just lost wandering sheep that have left the flock, but never stopped being a sheep, still love Jesus. And, uh, they show up and they're like, this is what I always thought church should be. And so they stick around and they heal.
[00:13:23] And It's just beautiful to see.
[00:13:25] Jeremy Pryor: So good. Thanks so much for, yeah. Give me that, uh, kind of high level overview. I'm going to definitely drill down into a bunch of those elements of your story. I mean, part, part of when I think about these sort of stairsteps and I want to start with kind of where your story started, which was somebody who actually gave you permission to think outside the box, which is so rare.
[00:13:43] Um, and then going down into, okay, what you saw in China, what you started to look around the United States for multiplying movements, do these exist? We know they exist overseas. Why don't they happen here? Um, and then of course, what you guys began to do, first Corinthians 14, 26, defining discipleship and actually creating a blueprint around your, what's working for multiplying disciples in your context, and then, And what's happened in the last four or five years is God's blessed that.
[00:14:08] So I want to kind of take us down, uh, that outline. And, uh, I'm, I'm just really excited to understand how all of this happened for you guys. So, um, one of the things I, I really wrestle with, and when people ask like, why did the reformers, um, why, why were they able to recover? The Bible is the word of God, salvation by faith, but they didn't, they weren't able to restructure the church.
[00:14:33] I've really wrestled with this question. I think one of the, one of the answers that I'm sort of stuck on, and I would love to get your take on this, especially given your story, is I feel that we have made a collective decision, um, in the Protestant world to disrespect the spiritual gift of the apostolic spiritual gift, that is people who,
[00:14:58] Um, and so, you know, somebody with those kinds of architectural level gifts, when they walk into a traditional church that is led by a pastor or a teacher, somebody who doesn't have those gifts, but really good at executing against that traditional model. They, they really, it's really hard to have somebody like this come into your asking questions.
[00:15:16] Why do we do that? Why aren't we doing this with smaller groups? Why, like, you know, like, Whose, whose idea was it to, uh, you know, always give lectures or, you know, like they start asking this incredibly uncomfortable questions. And in your context, those were encouraged. I mean, that's so unusual. Like, yeah, I'm curious what your thoughts are about, like what, what created the spirit of, um, that, that kind of gave you permission to ask questions like this.
[00:15:39] And how much do you think this is sort of related to why we're kind of stuck when it comes to church models?
[00:15:46] Art Thomas: Yeah, wow. That's a big question. Um, you know, uh, first of all, I think this is just a good little shout out, uh, Joel Comiskey. Some may have heard of him. He, he was really big back during the cell church movement, uh, in the nineties.
[00:16:00] Um, he's written a lot of books on small group and they're all great. Um, uh, he wrote the forward for my book, but there's a book that he wrote called, I think it's 2000 years of small groups. It's a great, like scholarly level look. at small group ministry through the last two centuries in the church. And so there actually always has been, uh, I, I hesitate to call it a remnant, like we're something super special, but there's always been this group of people that's out there just trying to get to the basics, even Even with the whole Catholic Church and all that, you'd have the monastics and you'd have, you know, these little brotherhoods that would form and, um, and so even up through the Reformation, I think all of this, uh, historically, uh, we can say that there have always been people throughout history who saw the What was happening, what the blueprint was in, in the book of acts and the house to house meetings and, and managed to make it happen regardless of whatever the predominant structure of the day was.
[00:17:08] Um, and, and, uh, it's, it's, happened right up until today. Now, the bigger question though is, you know, you didn't put it in these words, but I think one of the things I've wrestled with is why do we suddenly see this breaking out of the shell in recent years where now it's a little more normal to have house churches?
[00:17:30] Um, the, the, Kind of dyed in the wool old school folks will still look at us with a sideways glance, but um, You know here I am our church I I think this is a quick little detour that's worth having a lot of us house church folks are averse to denominations And to organization, um, many have probably already clicked off this interview cause they heard that we organized, you know, like I just understand how that works.
[00:17:59] Um, I've been one of those people. I'm like, why bother with any of this? Um, you know, I've got credentials with the assemblies of God, but I don't even believe credentials should be necessary for someone to go do ministry. Why do I do that? Why did Paul tell Timothy to be circumcised? Like, No one preached more adamantly against circumcision than Paul, but he told Timothy to be circumcised for the sake of reaching the Jews.
[00:18:22] And it's like, some people won't listen to you unless you got that piece of paper.
[00:18:27] Jeremy Pryor: So
[00:18:28] Art Thomas: I'm like, yeah, I'll play the game. No problem. And so it's, it becomes for love reasons, not for accolades or pride reasons. Right. And a similar thing with the organizing our church, we saw exponential growth when we started our church, uh, uh, officially.
[00:18:45] and, uh, as an organization, and I honestly, it's, I believe because in the United States as you're trying to reach Americans, there is something psychological about seeing a website and a logo Yes. And a name and we're a thing. And, uh, suddenly people are like, oh. I mean, we, most of our people attended other churches when we were just a house, church.
[00:19:07] Yeah. And then when we organized, suddenly, suddenly they're like, oh, that's my church. And they're telling everybody about their church and they're inviting people to their church and everything shifted. Um, the, with that, one of the things I write about in my book is how I believe there are four basic types of, uh, organizations.
[00:19:26] There's the, the hamster wheels that keep the body of Christ, the organism, busy, and, and, you know, uh, wearing themselves out but never getting anywhere. Uh, there's cages that just stifle life altogether. There's, uh, playpens where there's a whole lot of life And, uh, we invite people in to come play with the same toys, but nobody ever gets to go out.
[00:19:49] Everything's just safe inside our four walls. And then the fourth type of organization would be a tool in the hands of the organism, the body of Christ that helps to leverage strength. And I said from the beginning, uh, if we're going to be. An organization, we have to be a tool in the hands of the body of Christ that leverages strength, makes us more fruitful.
[00:20:10] And I said, if Roots Church ever becomes any, uh, anything other than a tool, a hamster wheel, a cage, a playpen, I'm out the whole, let's shut the whole thing down. Right? And similarly with, um, with our denomination, which the AG doesn't like to call themselves that they're a fellowship of autonomous churches.
[00:20:26] But at any rate, um, we've, we've said, you know what, this is the people I grew up with. This is family. I believe that I benefit from them and they can benefit from us. And, uh, I, I, I want to continue to see change in the church and, and be a change agent that, that, uh, moves us closer to biblical Christianity and, and to learn from those in the fellowship that are doing the same.
[00:20:50] Right. And, um, and so as long as that's beneficial, uh, we're gonna, we're gonna keep doing that. So, um, the reason I brought all that up was just to say, okay, here we are in, in a denomination. And even the assemblies of God is Like smiling on what we're doing, uh, from the state level, even the, the national superintendent wrote an endorsement for the gospel houses book, which was crazy, you know, um, cause just a few years ago, everybody thought we were crazy and doing something weird.
[00:21:22] Yeah. So something's breaking out. Why is that? What what's going on? Uh, and, and I think there's a few things. One, I think when Francis Chan wrote letters to the church, It gave a lot of people permission to think. Um, for me personally, my, my shift started back in, uh, somewhere in the mid 2000s, uh, when George Barna wrote revolution, I think it was 2008, if I remember right.
[00:21:50] Um, and, and basically started questioning everything about why we do church. And then he and Frank Viola came out with pagan Christianity. And now they're questioning, why do we do sermons? Why do we, why do we tithe? Why do we anything, you know? And I'm like, whoa, this is blowing my mind. Uh, I've got questions and I didn't want to just take one or two authors words for it.
[00:22:10] I started really doing research and digging in and, uh, searching the scriptures and, and started to come to conclusions that I'm like, Oh, okay, this, this is something we should be doing it this way, you know, or even. Not should, but can, like, there's some things that we do that I'm like, God bless you all for doing other things.
[00:22:31] You're going to reach people that we're not going to and that's fine. But there's some things I think we should do. Um, if, if Paul says, when you come together, each of you has something and all of these things must be done.
[00:22:44] Jeremy Pryor: Yes.
[00:22:44] Art Thomas: And our big meetings of a hundred plus people are inadequate church meetings because It's not logistically possible for everybody to do something.
[00:22:54] Um, instead we have the classic, you know, 10 percent of the people do 90 percent of the work, or sometimes less than 10%, right, of the people. Um, in our situation, uh, man, we just had a house church meeting, uh, last night. And, um, I asked some good probing questions, but I didn't preach a sermon. And, uh, mostly it was everybody else sharing that was moving the dialogue along.
[00:23:22] And then I would share a thought here and there, but it was just a conversation. And, uh, culminated in communion together, and worship, and time of prayer with each other. Um, a sense of the presence of the Lord in the room, um, ministering to people. And, and it, I mean, this is what we do.
[00:23:40] Jeremy Pryor: Yes. Um, yeah. The body building itself up.
[00:23:43] Art Thomas: Yeah.
[00:23:43] Jeremy Pryor: Yes. Yeah. That's a real thing.
[00:23:45] Art Thomas: So that there's, I don't know, there's some of us who have those, I don't know that, that maybe it's, maybe it's that apostolic grace. Maybe it's just a personality quirk. You know, I never know what it is exactly, but something that, you know, That makes us want to think like reinvent the wheel.
[00:24:04] And it's like, why do I want to reinvent the wheel on everything I do? It's a, it annoys my wife, but, uh, you know, it's, it's been good. Yeah. Getting, getting down those
[00:24:15] Jeremy Pryor: first principles, you know, right.
[00:24:18] Art Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. I'm always like, is, is there a more efficient way to do this? Is there a more effective way to do this?
[00:24:25] And I think what's happened over the centuries is you'll have some of those people who for whatever reason feel permission to do something with the questions that they have. And maybe there's, it's because there's an intersection between their understanding or their, their vision and their, um, Their skill set, you know, what, what are they capable of doing?
[00:24:52] Um, their proficiencies. And when those things work together, along with just this passionate drive to, to make it happen, uh, then you start to see these things just break out all over the place. But What a lot of folks have is they have these questions and vision ideas, but they don't necessarily have the skill set to do something with it.
[00:25:13] And so they go to the people who have the skill set, but no vision for it, and they say, why don't we do this? And this person's like, well, I got my own vision. That we're doing with this skill set. And so it just feels like I'm not allowed. I'm, you know, I'm being shut down. I'm being stifled. And so they either get frustrated and sit there quietly or they get frustrated and they leave.
[00:25:37] Um, and hopefully if they get frustrated enough to build some skills, they can start something. That's right. So,
[00:25:42] Jeremy Pryor: yeah. Well, I, you know, with the There's several things there I'd love to try to explore with you. So I like the fact that, and I'd love for you to kind of maybe go a layer deeper in making the case for organizing.
[00:25:55] Um, I think that that, that, that calling that out is actually really important because I do think that there's a, I think, I think of it as sort of like the libertarian branch of the house church movement where people are just like, they, they just don't want to be told what to do. And so that's, that's maybe more of what's driving them.
[00:26:10] I really want to see. Disciples multiply. I want to see the kingdom expand. Like, who cares if, if it's, if there's like a hyper, um, level of, of liberty, that's not necessarily like we, we still need organization. And I've been sort of stuck a little bit in the middle of this. I love the idea of particularly households having a high level of autonomy to make disciples.
[00:26:33] Um, but I also, you know, I don't think it's, I have begun to be increasingly convinced that the way you described in this culture that we live in, when you are not willing to organize, you're, you are stifling the multiplication of what you're doing. And so I'm watching, you know, house church movements that have a sort of a central structure, right?
[00:26:54] Like there's the, what's happened in, uh, Tampa Bay underground or what's going on in, you know, with Kansas city, uh, where they're connected to that. What's, you know, there's a group here. In Covington, Kentucky, that's connected the vineyard that, that has a really good rhythm of like, you know, meeting as a group, but then the house churches, um, there does like the, these are dials, right?
[00:27:14] These are dials. When you dial to a hundred percent, like, like every single households autonomous, they never get together. There's no, there's no shared leadership. There's no team, um, the, the fragility in our culture. And then you pointed out to sort of the legitimacy is also a major question. So yeah, any other elements you would add to.
[00:27:33] Like if somebody's listening to this saying, man, I, I'm kind of on the fence. Maybe we should organize, there's other house churches in my area. You know, what would you say to that?
[00:27:41] Art Thomas: Yeah. Well, uh, right out of the gate, uh, my top advice when it comes to organizing is don't organize as a house church, organize as a network.
[00:27:49] Okay. Um, main reason is if you organize as a house church and then you multiply, they've got to organize too. And it, it just is very slow moving. If you organize as a network, now things can move. Um, you mentioned this dial and I'm not sure if this is exactly what you're referring to, but, but there seems to be a spectrum between, um, liberty and control.
[00:28:12] Um, you know, and you mentioned the libertarian bent, you know, if we were to talk politics for a second, there's always this tension between freedom and security. And, uh, it's like the more of one you have, the less of the other you have. And a similar sort of thing happens in church where, you know, we've got this spectrum between, uh, just free for all And, uh, oversight.
[00:28:36] And, um, and so what we've tried to do is, is fine tune somewhere in the middle where it's like all of our house churches, um, are essentially autonomous. They, they, um, uh, decide what they're talking about that night together, as it just emerges out of all of that, how they structure their meeting changes from one house church to a next.
[00:29:00] Um, we might have, uh, Well, I would say in the 16 house churches we have, if someone came and visited one of our house churches, you haven't seen Roots Church. Um, so usually we'll have people try out four or five, six of them because everyone has a different culture. Um, culture is people and if the people are different, the culture is going to be different.
[00:29:21] Um, so, uh, What we've done is we've said, all right, if you're, if you're, we, we want people to have the autonomy to lead their own meetings, uh, and to make them what they want them to be, but as a network, we are uniting under a. For lack of a better term, and I hate the word, but a brand. It's like, here's our shared culture and core values.
[00:29:45] All of our meetings are interactive meetings. So if you're just going to, you know, sing three songs and do a sermon and for five people in your living room, You're not part of Roots Church. Uh, it's gotta be, everybody has a voice, everybody works together. Um, we have certain doctrinal things that we're like, these are the non negotiables that you don't have to burn up valuable house church time debating because, you know, centuries of church history have settled these matters and we've landed on this and we're, we're not going to change.
[00:30:17] So, If you disagree with that, go enjoy another church, you know, or stay with us and keep dialoguing. We're okay with disagreeing, but we're not going to divide over this issue that's, that's, we considered settled. Um, and so there's, there's a certain amount of that, which offers some stability to all of our house church pastors.
[00:30:37] Um, someone comes and starts being a little divisive on some, you know, minuscule, uh, well, maybe, maybe it's big, you know, deity of Christ or something like that. And there's this dialogue about whether that's true or not, that pastor can be like, listen, we'll, I'll, I'll share with you why we believe what we believe, but, um, this isn't.
[00:30:58] Just so you understand this isn't this one isn't a debate, uh, that we're going to have in this meeting. Um, also if somebody challenges a house church leaders, uh, and we, we call them pastors. Uh, I look at, um, what Peter said, uh, in, was it first Peter five, he said to the elders among you, I charge you as a fellow elder, be shepherds of God's flock.
[00:31:20] And that, Greek word for shepherd, same word used for pastor in Ephesians four. Um, and so there, I see this connection between elder and shepherd. Yes. Um, and so I, you know, we call them pastors and, uh, we as an organization are able to credential them so that if, uh, you know, somebody wants them to perform their wedding, they legally can.
[00:31:41] Um, that's not something that you can do if you're just, well, there's some debate on that legally, but it's, it's sketchy and I, I've, I've I would rather not be sketchy if I don't have to, um, there's a lot of folks who are nervous about 501c3 status and they believe that you're selling yourselves to, you know, Babylon and, and all of that.
[00:32:01] Um, you know, technically Roots Church is not a 501c3. We come under the 501c3 of the assemblies of God, but, um, you know, the main concern about 501c3 is that they're trying to stifle free speech in the church, to which I'm like, uh, It's only stifling free speech if you let it stifle free speech. I mean, just say what you feel led to say, and if it goes to the Supreme Court, take it there.
[00:32:27] You know, like, um, people, there are, uh, I read an article about, uh, how, like, what, A crazy number of churches violate the Johnson Amendment every year and endorse candidates and it's like, no, if nothing ever happens. Who's going to actually,
[00:32:43] Jeremy Pryor: yeah, actually. And so you have pastors, are these, like, is there like a governing governance that's above at any level or like a plurality?
[00:32:52] What if they're, yeah, what happens if the pastor goes off the rails?
[00:32:55] Art Thomas: Yeah, good question. So what? Here's here's our structure. We have, um, I mentioned earlier the organization and I contrasted that with the organism, which is the body of Christ, right? Um, and these different types of organizations, right? So we have organizational leadership and organic leadership.
[00:33:15] The organic leadership would function even if the organization went away. These are our house church pastors. They serve as an eldership board for the whole network. Um, then, uh, on the organizational side, uh, we have our senior leadership team, which kind of interacts with both spheres here. Um, and, uh, a five person board from people in the network.
[00:33:42] Um, who are recommended by the house church pastors. And then we just like the book of acts. We just, uh, we have equally qualified people and then we draw names out of a bowl, um, uh, for how to fill those roles. Um, and these are just people who have, there may be business people, but they're disciple makers.
[00:33:59] They, they share the gospel. They minister to people on the streets. They, you know, they, they love Jesus and love people. And we're like, that's the kind of people like. Stephen was working miracles and signs and wonders in the streets, and that's why they made a deacon. Right? So that's our kind of deacon qualification here.
[00:34:16] Anyhow, um, so that we have that group there. Um, the senior leadership team, uh, is seven people. I lead the team that leads the network. Um, and so we collectively are involved in leading the network. We have a guy on that team who is our overseeing evangelism. We have another who is, um, in charge of basically he's the, we call him the pastor to the house church pastors, but really he's overseeing another layer in between that we just call overseers for lack of a better term.
[00:34:48] We thought about presbyters and all that, but no one knows what these words mean. So we have these overseers that, but. Have like two to four pastors under their umbrella that they're responsible to oversee and, and care for, uh, I think it's maybe it's two to two to five. Yeah. Um, and, uh, then, then we have, um, uh, a young lady who oversees youth ministry.
[00:35:10] Another who does children's ministry. Uh, we have a community service director who's helping us organize projects for widows and, and, uh, you know, just people in need and we're fixing up their houses and things like that. Um, and, uh, there's a lot of components to his ministry. Um, and then, um, We have an executive director who manages all of the legal and financial stuff for the network.
[00:35:36] So that's the senior leadership team. Three of those seven people are paid staff, uh, are salaried. Two of them are under salaried and then two of them are volunteer. Okay. Um, And these are small salaries, not like huge, because we're all bivocational in one form or another. Um, uh, I, I am self employed outside of the church and, and, uh, others are, have their own income.
[00:36:02] So, um, but yeah, so we have that. And then when people give to the network, Every dollar goes somewhere. We've got a fund for widows and orphans and a fund for the service projects and, and, uh, missions money that we're able to send out. Um, you know, uh, we've got, uh, orphanage that I've built in Uganda that we support.
[00:36:23] So there's a whole lot of moving parts there that that five person board and the seven person senior leadership team oversee. And just for those who are really like to get into the weeds, in order for any action to pass the board, it has to pass a majority of both of those sides of the board, the five person congregational and the senior leadership team.
[00:36:41] And so it keeps it from being a board run church and it keeps it from me as a leader having undue authority or I should say. Um, instead it's just, we're relational. We have You know, uh, 11 people getting together. No, what's five plus seven to 12 people getting together, uh, for our board meetings every other month.
[00:37:00] And we've, we have unanimous decisions on basically everything. I think one time we had someone abstain and one time we had someone vote differently, uh, but we walk out of the room, unanimous five and a half years. We love each other and we love the Lord. The first half hour of every board meeting is sharing testimonies of all the things God's doing throughout the network.
[00:37:20] Mm-Hmm, . And we usually have to cut it short. Um, and then the pastoral side, they manage all the pastoral stuff. So church discipline issues. Um, you know, if, if one of these house church pastors goes off the rails. Yes, the senior leadership team is kind of driving whatever church discipline needs to happen, but it's really their peers, the house church eldership that is alongside this whole thing going, yeah, here's what we think wisdom dictates should be done.
[00:37:50] Um, so really our job as the senior leadership team is not to lead. The pastors, but to serve the pastors and make it so that they're more effective at making disciples more effective at doing pastoral ministry. And the senior leadership team and the board are just managing all the finances and legal aspects.
[00:38:07] So they don't have to focus on any of that.
[00:38:09] Jeremy Pryor: I see.
[00:38:09] Art Thomas: It's really set people free to do ministry and not have to worry about the logistics.
[00:38:14] Jeremy Pryor: Yeah. That's really good. Yeah, that's really helpful. Thanks for getting into the weeds there. Cause I, I know a lot of people are like, Oh man, trying to structure this in a way that, that, that does hit that right balance between the organism and, uh, and that the organization, that that's a challenging thing to figure out.
[00:38:30] I would love art for you to help me understand the connection between discipleship and, you know, Um, what's going on actually in these first Corinthians 14, 26 gathering. So how do you think about discipleship? I, you know, we, there's sort of an apprenticeship element to that we see in the gospels, but then Paul, um, who clearly was doing it with Timothy, he had those, he was apprenticing, but there's all this building up of the body.
[00:38:54] And one of the confusing things for me has always been. trying to understand that word. I mean, that word has been used in so many ways. Discipleship, you know, you have the navigators, like, you know, one to one who's your man kind of discipleship. They've got a very clear blueprint what that means. Um, and then you have kind of like this really loose definition of discipleship that happens today, which is every time I hear a sermon on the radio, I'm being discipled.
[00:39:13] Um, and so I, I, I'm, I've been like, really like trying to wrangle this word and I'm curious how you have wrestled with it and how you guys, you know, uh, think about that in your context.
[00:39:23] Art Thomas: Yeah, um, so I don't mean this as a cop out answer, uh, because I do have more details, but, uh, what we landed on is it's any which way you can.
[00:39:33] In other words, like, you know, we have recommended means by which disciples are made, but also, Like, don't feel boxed in by these recommendations. If some other opportunity presents itself, just go for it. You know, we're here to minister to people and love people and bring them closer to Jesus. So I believe it was Dallas Willard who said that discipleship is becoming who Jesus would be if he were you.
[00:40:02] I think it's pretty good. Um, you know, it's like if he had your family history, your career, your locale of, of living, uh, and your relationships, who would he be? And, uh, I, I, I would like to expand that to who is he. Um, one of the verses we lean on very heavily here and it comes up in almost every meeting is Galatians 2.
[00:40:24] 20, I've been crucified with Christ, I no longer live, Christ lives in me. And the life I now live in the body I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me. So discipleship formation is about being conformed into the image and likeness of Christ. Um, 2 Corinthians 3 18 says, as we behold his glory, we're transformed into his image with ever increasing glory, which comes from the Lord who is the spirit.
[00:40:50] So how do we behold his glory? I think there's a lot of different ways we do, but in specifically in the house church context, one of those ways is in each other. Um, as we are, Uh, shining his image and likeness to each other, granted falling short from time to time. Right. But, uh, you know, none of us, I have yet to meet someone who is a hundred percent shining Jesus perfectly all the time, you know, um, but, uh, but certainly as we grow and are being conformed into his image and likeness and going from glory to glory.
[00:41:22] We're shining him and if I'm showing you Jesus, then when you're looking at me, you're seeing him and that enables you to be made more like him as well. The more, more clearly I can see who he is, the more I can trust him to be that in me as I die to self, die to flesh, right? And trust the Holy Spirit. So like the gospel is core to everything we do.
[00:41:46] I, I, we've talked about what's the secret sauce behind all the multiplication we've seen and. Is our structure part of that? Probably, but honestly, we think the main ingredient is our articulation of the gospel. So, uh, in all discipleship scenarios, the gospel is the answer to everything. Someone wants to be a better husband.
[00:42:08] Okay. Well, what do you do? You die to self and you let the spirit of God express the life of Jesus through you. Um, you want to be a better parent? Die to self. Let the spirit live through you. You want to be a better employee or a better boss? Die to self. Let the spirit live through you. And, and just trust him.
[00:42:24] It's by, by grace through faith. So the discipleship process is helping people to identify whatever gaps in the gospel exist in their own thinking, um, and lifestyle. And what I mean by that is. You know, you're a christian you said yes to the big generic gospel Jesus paid the price for my sin. He you know has welcomed me into his presence praise god Woo, and I get to i've got a destiny that's eternal and this is awesome.
[00:42:56] And uh, that's Good enough for a whole lot of Christianity to just keep being Christians, right? But uh, it goes further than that and I think the most essential missing component in most gospel presentations is The resurrection life of the holy spirit now in me to make me a new creation The old has gone the newest here.
[00:43:17] My identity has fundamentally changed So what happens is people grow up, uh, you know, they, they have experiences that teach them things and that experience might teach them. I'm not, uh, lovable. I'm not desired. Uh, you know, I don't matter. I don't have a voice, whatever these things are that happened to them.
[00:43:40] And they accept the big picture gospel, but still believe. The lies they were taught through these experiences and Bible calls those strongholds, thoughts and pretensions of the heart that exalt themselves against the knowledge of Christ, uh, second Corinthians 10. So what we do is we say, you know, as we're just having dialogue with people and helping them to become more like Jesus, it's simple because all you have to do is just know who Jesus is.
[00:44:05] And then see what doesn't line up with him and, and just love this person into breaking that stronghold. You know, this is the truth of what the Lord says about you. Look at what the scripture says here. And you know, you're, you're fearfully and wonderfully made, or, you know, you're, you're, he's, he's like, you're, you're a son, you're part of a nation of priests and kings.
[00:44:27] And you're, you know, like, you no longer live, Christ lives in you. And we, we keep Feeding each other this encouragement that we're supposed to encourage each other with daily, according to Hebrews, right? And, um, and, and little by little picking apart those gaps in the gospel that are, that are narrow gospel issues instead of the broad gospel issue.
[00:44:48] Um, so what does that look like now in practical terms? Uh, there's a great book by Mike Breen, I think his wife Sally was in on it, but it's, it's called, uh, Family on Mission. Basic premise of it was, he said, uh, we saw growing up in church, there was family or mission. And one of those suffered at the hands of the other.
[00:45:09] Um, and then, so he said, when my wife and I went into Bible school, we just decided we're going to do, uh, family and mission. And that's going to look like some of this is family time. Some of this is mission time and never the two shall mix, but we're going to do both and we're going to do it well.
[00:45:25] Jeremy Pryor: Yeah.
[00:45:25] Art Thomas: And, uh, they found they were just as unhealthy as the other folks that they were trying to not be like. Then they landed on what they call family on mission, which is somebody's having a crisis and they call me up and I go, well, no problem. I'm taking my kids grocery shopping in about a half hour. Why don't you come over and ride with me?
[00:45:44] We'll chat in the car. We'll talk in the grocery store. And as you're going about your business, you're also You know, they're seeing you discipline your kids and they're being discipled by that. They're seeing you pray for the cashier as you're checking out, and they're being discipled by that, and you're having this dialogue conversation.
[00:46:01] Your kids are seeing you disciple them, and they're gleaning from the wisdom that's, that's coming out in those conversations and watching what it looks like to life on life. Love somebody into life. .
[00:46:13] Jeremy Pryor: Yeah.
[00:46:13] Art Thomas: And, uh, so everybody's benefiting. And sometimes the kids will ask questions and now it becomes a new teachable moment and they're seeing how you disciple your kids and everybody's benefiting and it's just life.
[00:46:26] It's not taking any extra time out of my schedule. We're just a family. Um, people come over. Okay, I'm going to be doing dishes. Just sit down at the table. Let's chat, you know, here. Why don't you cut these carrots for dinner? You know, and, uh, so you invite people into your world. You chat with them. You listen to their issues.
[00:46:44] Bye! You're looking for what are the gaps in the gospel. You bring the gospel to confront those gaps. And when they see Jesus, they become more like him in those areas. Okay, well, I confess that sin. Great, you are forgiven in Jesus name, purified from all unrighteousness. Why don't we just, uh, now expect.
[00:47:01] Jesus, who we see what he's like to now express himself through you. Okay. Let's see what happens. Awesome. Gradual transformation, but it's rapid fire. It's awesome. That's so good.
[00:47:11] Jeremy Pryor: Well, yeah, I love that art that, yeah, that integration that is, I think when you're doing church in a more organic way, it begins to, instead of kind of this, I feel like bias towards, okay, everything that happens for spiritual growth happens in this building.
[00:47:29] It's like, I think we're starting to break that down. And so I think the implications. Um, of, of doing things more organically and in homes allows for this kind of family expression you're describing or discipleship, I think is so critical. Um, last thing I wanted to hit before, before we go, it's been super helpful.
[00:47:44] Um, so first Corinthians 14, it seems like what's going on there, Paul's, you know, not happy with, There's something going on with these Corinthians. There's a lot of chaos. And so he says, okay, here's, this is, let me remind you of the pattern. Here we go. This is why we, and so it's such a helpful, uh, articulation of what was actually happening in their gatherings.
[00:48:02] I think the most detail we get. And then of course you have that summary in verse 26, which you, you mentioned it just so helpful. Now, one of the things I constantly experience is that when, when we talked about, you know, And, you know, he's describing kind of like two or three prophets speak. I mean, there's something going on in the, in when the body gathers, but people are, um, there's so much muscle memory around passivity.
[00:48:24] They're so used to people that have spent, you know, 10, 20, 30 years in worship services and are so used to sitting back all of a sudden show up to a house church gathering where their gift is critical for this to actually happen. Like you've got to lean in. You got to. What have you found to activate what, what, what can we do when the body gathers to help overcome the learned passivity that happens for so many people?
[00:48:50] Yeah. What, one
[00:48:51] Art Thomas: of the best tools is awkward silence. And so you just sit there and you smile at them and you just wait. And you know, 45, 50 seconds goes by. And you just keep smiling. And now, uh, once you get the culture going, I mean, that's what I had to do in the early days. Now, if it sits for 20 seconds and it's quiet, I'll just say, well, let's close in prayer and everybody will laugh and someone will speak up and, you know, it's great.
[00:49:18] Um, So, you know, you, you use that awkward silence and you don't feel obligated to fill every moment of silence. Yes. As long as you don't fill the silence, someone will eventually step up and, uh, and then if people are like, I don't like how that person just kept talking. Okay. Why didn't you talk? You know?
[00:49:39] Yes. Interrupt them. Which Jackie
[00:49:41] Jeremy Pryor: says you're supposed to do. Right? Yeah. Interrupt each other.
[00:49:45] Art Thomas: We just had that happen last night. It was great. Thank you. So yeah, you, you just, um, you show that love and this is the other piece is, um, I want. I want people to feel safe to explore ideas, right? So, I mean, I, I know a lot of Bible.
[00:50:05] I mean, you've seen me quoting it and such I've been immersed in it my whole life. And from time to time, someone will say something that I just flat out know is anti Bible and it's just wrong. It's not a matter of opinion. It just, here it is. Right. And if, if my immediately my response is, well, actually the Bible disagrees with you.
[00:50:25] Here's what it says. What that does is it makes everybody in the room go, Oh, I don't want to say something wrong. So I'm going to be hesitant every time I think to say something. So instead, what I want to do is I want to encourage people to step out. And so I'll say things like, now that is a really interesting thought.
[00:50:44] I'm glad you brought that up. Does anybody know what the scripture might have to say about that topic? And I let the people start wrestling with what they know, um, bringing it to the table. And a lot of times it'll just kind of fix itself. Um, and people are really gentle with dealing with each other.
[00:51:03] It's generally speaking, if someone's not being gentle, I'll step in and I'll correct their behavior. Despite the fact that they're bringing a correct, you know, I'll be like, Hey, uh, let's, let's make sure we're being loving. Okay. Yeah. Sorry. Okay. Right. Um, And then, uh, the other thing that happens is if everybody starts landing on the same conclusion as this person brought, now if I open the scripture and point out what the Bible says, I'm not correcting that person in front of everyone.
[00:51:33] This is now a blanket correction. And they don't feel singled out cause they're like, well, everybody thought the same thing as me, you know? Um, but we make the Bible our final authority so that that ends up being part of our culture as well. Um, so yeah, use the awkward silence. Encourage any kind of interaction that is beneficial.
[00:51:53] The only thing, the only kind of interaction I shut down is when people start talking about the hamburger they ate last night and they're going on and on. And I'm like, Hey, uh, let's put the train back on the tracks. Remember Jesus, he's a trying to disciple us here. And, uh, I know you loved that, uh, hamburger and really encountered God through it, but, uh, Let's get back on track.
[00:52:12] Everybody will laugh. I'll make a joke about it like that. And, and, uh, um, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll put it back. Um, you know, there, there's a lot of little tips and tricks and I put a lot of them in the book and, uh, you know, they're not occurring to my mind right now, unfortunately, but, but those are the top ones on my list for sure.
[00:52:29] That's so good.
[00:52:30] Jeremy Pryor: Super helpful. All right. So, um, uh, if people want to know more, I, we talked about the book, gospel houses and also, so it's, uh, what's the, uh, the website, the roots, uh, website that you guys.
[00:52:41] Art Thomas: Yeah. Our, our network is roots, a g. org roots. Okay. Yeah. And honestly, you can feel free to copy and paste and plagiarize whatever you want from there for kingdom purposes.
[00:52:52] Just, uh, you know, do it with the right heart. And, uh, you know, there's a, we have like, right when you open it up, there's what's a house church, find a house church and how to follow Jesus. Cause a lot of our folks are just giving out cards. For our church when they pray for the waitress at the restaurant and these people land on our church page and immediately how to follow Jesus.
[00:53:14] And then there's a free PDF they can download of a book I wrote for new believers. And there's um, there's evangelism tools that we have, how to share your faith, Christianity 101 curriculum that you can just over 10 weeks have 10 conversations with someone that gives them the basics of Christianity. Um, And so these are like tools that are useful, not necessary.
[00:53:36] Not everybody has to do these things, but for those who really like the structure, uh, we've tried to put all that on the website so people can use the tools and, and, uh, multiply the kingdom. Super helpful.
[00:53:46] Jeremy Pryor: All right. Thanks so much for jumping on here today. And, and Sharon was great. Thanks.
