[00:00:00] Jeremy Pryor: somebody made the argument that we Disciple our people through the pulpit So in other words as long as we have preaching and a worship service and at that worship service We're teaching the congregation people are showing up.
[00:00:11] We are making disciples Now, I don't know how many of you guys listening to this would say, yeah, that falls under the definition. But if you like me, you're kind of scratching your head thinking, I don't know if that's exactly what Jesus meant, then that's what we want to tease out today.
[00:00:24]
[00:01:14] Jeremy Pryor: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm here with my partner in crime, Brent Krutoff. Brent, thanks for jumping on here today.
[00:01:20] Brent Kruithof: Yeah.
[00:01:21] Jeremy Pryor: So we are both trying to figure out how to, uh, really work through all the things that are, all of the things that are 1KH. And, um, we've got these three coaching intensives made for mission, which is about outreach and evangelism through the household.
[00:01:36] We have a house for community, which is about how to start a house group or even a house church, depending on your context. Uh, but really the core thing that we're really starting with, uh, is, Life on Life Discipleship. This is our disciple making intensive. How do you multiply disciples in the West, in our culture?
[00:01:51] It isn't being done, uh, hardly anywhere. You're not seeing disciple making movements just kind of blow up in different places. And so we're constantly trying to understand why that is. Um, and we are tweaking and constantly working through our blueprint. We've got a lot of, uh, Folks in coaching in Life on Life, if you guys are interested, you can go over to 1kh.
[00:02:06] org and check that out if you want to have a blueprint for how to make disciples who actually make disciples. And so one of the topics I want to dive into today and just discuss with you guys is the definition of discipleship. I was just having a conversation last week with a friend of mine who's like, how important is it to narrow or clarify the definition of discipleship?
[00:02:26] Is there something fundamentally divisive? about even this conversation. And I, I think this is really important because it isn't that we needed to find discipleship in order that we can sort of like do a power grab and say, there's only our way to do it. That's really not the heart of why I think the definition is so important.
[00:02:46] The definition is important. Because Jesus told us to go and make disciples, and we must make sure that our definition of discipleship is consistent with what he was commanding us to do. And so some of the ways that you can easily, uh, and maybe even inadvertently weasel your way out of obeying Jesus, is you just redefine what obedience is.
[00:03:08] And poof! You know? Um, I was in a Church context one time and there was a debate going on about whether or not we're making disciples and somebody made the argument that we Disciple our people through the pulpit So in other words as long as we have preaching and a worship service and at that worship service We're teaching the congregation people are showing up.
[00:03:30] We are making disciples Now, I don't know how many of you guys listening to this would say, yeah, that's, that's, that falls under the definition. But if you like me, you're kind of scratching your head thinking, I don't know if that's exactly what Jesus meant, then that's what we want to tease out today. So what we want to do, I want to just play a little portion of one of the videos from our Life on Life discipleship.
[00:03:52] Um, uh, intensive and you guys listen to this and this is where we try to tease out what is the definition of discipleship and, um, and the criteria and kind of the things we're going to talk about. So I'm going to play this, Brent, get your reaction, and then to kind of tease out a few things about this, a really, really important topic.
[00:04:08] So let's dive in.
[00:04:09] We've talked about how discipleship is already really fraught with challenges that we face in our culture and in the current Christian climate, that one of the challenges we need to make sure we're also not facing. is a confusion about the definition of discipleship. We want to be as absolutely clear as possible what activities clearly fall under the definition of discipleship and which activities don't.
[00:04:36] And I've noticed over the years, as I've heard people use the word discipleship, it really started when I was younger with a very particular type of activity. But over the last 30 years, I've noticed the definition of discipleship has shifted. And the number of times people use the word for times where they are simply maybe building into somebody's life, um, in, in a moment of time, or they would define discipleship.
[00:05:03] As their preferred method of teaching somebody, the, the, the definition has gotten really slippery. The scope has gotten very broad. And because we're already facing these challenges, we need to get back to The core foundation of what discipleship really is. I wanna give you guys a definition for discipleship and I'll tell you guys how we're coming up with this definition and it's very simple.
[00:05:27] I'm trying to answer a very basic question. What was in the disciples mind when they heard Jesus say, go and make disciples? What were they thinking? If whatever definition you come up with would not be consistent with what they were thinking, but maybe something that is something that, that might be helpful for today, you might be smuggling in your preferred method of discipleship into the definition.
[00:05:55] It's important for us to distinguish these things. We're discipleship as clearly as we can. And then we're going to talk about methods separately, but it needs to fit the definition. So here is the most basic way I know to describe what I think was most likely in the disciples mind when they heard Jesus say, go make disciples.
[00:06:17] So this is the definition we're going to be using. The process where a follower of Jesus takes on an apprentice to train them in how he or she follows Jesus. The process where a follower of Jesus. takes on an apprentice to train them in how he or she follows Jesus. Now, the word discipleship or disciple, in Hebrew we say talmud or talmidim, it just simply means follower, uh, in both Greek or Hebrew, follower, learner.
[00:06:48] But clearly, they were watching a process. This is not just a disciple, but making disciples or discipleship. And that's why we're saying the process where a follower of Jesus takes on apprentices to train them on how he or she So we're going to sort of really dive into this definition as clearly as we can.
[00:07:10] There are three elements to the definition. The first one is the process. It's important to understand that discipleship is a process. It's not a one time event. It's something that happens over a period of time, and it's something that somebody has to decide they're a part of. And so we want to talk through what discipleship is.
[00:07:29] what, uh, how Jesus made disciples. And he did it in a very process oriented way. There were five elements at least to, to his process. He chose particular people. He called each of them to a commitment. They got to make a decision if they want to opt in or out. He then had a particular method for discipling them, which we'll talk about in a minute through apprenticeship.
[00:07:50] The fourth thing is he had a time period, which was three years. And the fifth thing is that he commissioned them to go. and reproduce to give others what he had just given them. And so Jesus's discipleship method was, was very, very much a process. And people knew when they were a part of it. People knew when they weren't a part of it.
[00:08:09] Um, Jesus taught the crowds. He did lots of ways to teach people. He had encounters with lots of individuals, but there were only 12 that he was committed to. taking through this particular process. And then they were even broken down into the three. And then there was, of course, a larger group of disciples, the 70 or the 72.
[00:08:27] Um, but we want to, we really want to understand, um, that, that if somebody is going to be making disciples, they need to begin by having a process in mind. And so that, that is a part of the, the basic definition of, of discipleship. Um, now it's, it's a discipleship happens when somebody takes on an apprentice.
[00:08:46] And this is really, again, where we really zero in on the definition of the word disciple. A learner, a follower, and probably the best word we have in our culture for the kind of learner, the kind of follower that a disciple was in the first century is this word apprentice. We all know what that means at some level.
[00:09:02] Even though it's not a popular way of doing education, we're familiar with the idea that somebody could just come alongside, like an intern in a business, uh, and just shadow somebody, go through a process where they are learning on the job. how to do what the person that is more experienced is teaching them how to do.
[00:09:21] And so this is why Jesus, his call for discipleship was come follow me. That was how he began the process of discipleship. The reason why he said that was because he want part of his process, his method was apprenticeship. And so what's interesting about apprenticeship versus, The just learning environments that we create and more of an industrial level of education, sitting in, let's say, a classroom at college of 500 people taking a history class.
[00:09:47] How is that different than apprenticeship walking alongside of a carpenter for 2 or 3 years? And really, to me, the biggest difference between classroom education and apprenticeship is that classroom education is forced to reduce all of the lessons into things that can be delivered. In a lecture format or in a classroom format, whereas an apprenticeship can involve the thousands of indirect lessons that you're going to learn.
[00:10:07] Oh, how did he deal with that customer? What did he do when somebody pushed back? How did he handle when that thing broke? You know, when he was doing it, when he was working on the carpentry, there's a thousand like extra little lessons that get kind of left out when you try to bullet out all the different things that you can deliver in the course of a classroom.
[00:10:22] So an apprenticeship was Jesus's method. And I think that for, Discipleship to be consistent with at least what was in the disciples mind when they heard Jesus say go and make disciples They certainly would have heard apprenticeship and you can see that as you read the book of Acts or see The way the disciples lived after Jesus left they were taking on specific apprentices In the same way Jesus had had encouraged them.
[00:10:44] The third element is to train this apprentice in how you follow Jesus. And so part of this process is you are training them. They're watching, but they're not, they're not watching, um, uh, just any part of your life. That part of their life, they really are zeroing in on is the areas in which you are already following or how you are already obey Jesus.
[00:11:05] That is, What is that? That's what they're in the process of training. So obedience is a really critical part of discipleship. It's a training process. It's not something that's just teaching. You actually need to give the people you're discipling particular skills, uh, for how to do this. Now, because our faith is a belief, there are a lot of elements that can't be you.
[00:11:23] reduce down to an activity. However, if, if the elements of the faith include certain activities, ways in which you, you do evangelism, ways in which you spend time with the Lord, ways that you treat your family or different ways in which you go about your business, uh, in your regular life, all of these things are elements of what could be a part of discipleship.
[00:11:43] Um, but I think what's really important to keep in mind is, Discipleship, and I'm going to emphasize this over and over again, we are training people not to follow us, but to follow Jesus. And so this is the biggest difference between the way that we disciple and the way that Jesus discipled. We cannot disciple people to obey perfectly because all of us have areas where we're still growing and learning.
[00:12:03] Um, but we can disciple people. Train people how to follow Jesus in areas in which we are following Jesus. And so discipleship for us is always needed needs to be somewhat limited to those areas in which we are obeying. We can give people what we have. We can't give people what we don't yet have. Cool. All right. So that's, uh, gives you guys kind of a snapshot on the definition of discipleship that we're working with. So. Yeah. I'd love to kind of just drill into a few elements here, Brent, first of all. Yeah. What, what's to you in that?
[00:12:29] Brent Kruithof: Uh, yeah, I think, uh, the main thing I was thinking through as I was hearing that was how, um, how the, the, the definition of discipleship has just become so like nebulous and, and not really, uh, you know, it can be, Hey, this is what we do from the pulpit, or this is what we do through a small group, um, or I feel like the thing I hear most, I mentioned this in another podcast was like, I do discipleship with my kids.
[00:12:53] That's, that's my disciple making is, is, um, with my kids. And, and so really defining it the way that, uh, Jesus's disciples would have understand it is really helpful for me. And, um, something I think is really important in the church today. I mean, I think the analogy that kind of kept coming to mind was like the idea of like sitting in a, in a chemistry lecture versus like a chem lab, you know, like one is you're, you're sitting there and you're like, Maybe taking some notes and, and, uh, you know, the professor's teaching you theory versus like you're actually getting out your, your Bunsen burner and you're like getting hands on practice or you're seeing your chemistry teacher do it and, and I feel like that's the, the idea behind discipleship that I think for a really long time was lost on me and probably is still as common among, um, believers today is we get taught at so much, but we haven't really been trained in how to do certain things.
[00:13:50] We haven't seen, um, disciple making done well. And, um, I think that's, uh, as we were walking through that definition, that was the part that was really standing out to me.
[00:14:02] Jeremy Pryor: Yeah, it's tough because, yeah, we are all immersed in this industrial education system at some level, and then we just, we're trying to solve as a sort of a country, uh, a problem, and that is how do you educate millions and millions of people, um, and this is not the way that Jesus primarily thought about the challenge of, of trying to train his followers.
[00:14:24] He wasn't, he didn't say, well, let's come up with an industrial method. where this can be done simultaneously. You know, like if you're doing a chemistry lecture, you can do that to a pretty much an unlimited number of people, adding more people to the process doesn't really reduce the experience. If it's just a lecture, you can do it online.
[00:14:45] You can do it in lots of different ways, but in a lab, it is a problem because you need somebody, you need to have, you know, a smaller ratio. You've got real hands on, um, learning going on. And so. I think that what Jesus was relying on in order to get to the proper scale was multiplication as opposed to a method that would allow for You know, mass dissemination of information.
[00:15:09] And so this is, this is why I think we have to distinguish between methods of mass dissemination, like lectures, uh, or podcasts or any of these other methods and discipleship. Discipleship cannot primarily be. Um, defined by simply one to many communication, it's got to involve an apprenticeship. It's got to, uh, be clear that that that's, that's kind of the how.
[00:15:33] And I don't, I think that Jesus, um, really was, he had, he had really demonstrated that. I think, I think that one of the things that, that I'm always probably one of the biggest convictions I have about the Bible that I find to be, uh, maybe a little different than, than others. And this is, I think, such a huge value and distinctive of 1KH, is we believe that there are actually a lot of how tos in the Bible.
[00:15:57] The Bible is not just telling us what or why, but it's also giving us a lot of information on how. And so you have in the Gospels a description of how Jesus, um, made disciples. In other words, if you just were to strip away all of the, um, kind of story elements of the gospels and just get down to the red letter teachings of Jesus, um, is something fundamental being left out of what we need from divine revelation in order for us to obey Jesus and follow his commands.
[00:16:28] And I would say, absolutely. Like we need to see some of those details that are in black and white. around the red letter, uh, elements of the gospels. And that is how did Jesus do this? You know, when it says he touched the leper, when it says that he called, you know, Peter, James, and John to go with him, you know, when, when the whole, the whole, the whole sort of scene of what happened in Gethsemane, um, on and on and on, there's so many interesting elements of Jesus showing the disciples things.
[00:16:55] And, uh, we have those elements preserved. And so I think, I think that we need to become very inspired by Jesus's That, uh, methodology really matters. And this is like when, you know, there's a famous, um, guy, philosopher, sociologist, Marshall McLuhan, who says the medium is the message. Basically, he said, how you deliver something actually changes the nature of the content itself.
[00:17:20] And I think that when you give information, uh, in a lecture format, or you give information in a lab, or you give information on a podcast, or in a book, Or in a one on one conversation, or a one to three conversation, or over coffee, or in the living room, you know, or on a walk. All of these things matter.
[00:17:38] Those are all different mediums of communication. They all have a big impact on what is being actually communicated. And so, I think that one of the decisions everyone listening to this has to make, and this is something that I had to really wrestle through personally, was is it important that discipleship be an apprenticeship?
[00:17:55] You know, is it important that that be the method, that it actually involves, uh, the small number of people that can be invited into apprenticeship and the elements of apprenticeship, which involve just really trying to watch the way that you live. And that's extraordinarily difficult. I found this is probably the most difficult part of, you know, my own personal disciple making practice is like trying to figure out.
[00:18:17] How do I get the guys I'm discipling kind of around my life in such a way that it starts to feel more like an apprenticeship. And so that's been really challenging because we don't live life in that kind of integrated way anymore. Um, we all have our own jobs. We all have our own families. Everyone's living a very independent and individualistic kind of life.
[00:18:35] And so. you know, saying to somebody, Hey, why don't you just, you know, move in with my family and just see how we do life for the next six months. It's just that, that would be an ideal way of doing discipleship, but it's very difficult. And so one of the things we're constantly trying to figure out in our coaching and life on life is, okay, how do we make this more of an apprenticeship?
[00:18:51] This is really a dial. And so a few of the things that we've tried, um, that have made this really practical is that we do these, you know, you know, These are sort of getaway events at the beginning and end of every disciple making process in order for people to just be around you, uh, in a much more immersive period of time.
[00:19:09] Um, then there's a process of just kind of listing out the things that you might be able to invite a apprentice into that happen in more your daily or weekly life, you know, invite them over for Shabbat dinner. And if you do that as a family and let them see. That experience or if you're doing a festival invite them over to the festival just constantly thinking.
[00:19:28] Okay. What am I doing this week? What am I doing this month? That would be possible for an apprentice to really like watch or kind of come along with me on if you're going for a trip and Is it possible to bring one of your apprentices on the trip with you? Um, like how much overlap can you really create in the, in this relationship?
[00:19:47] So that, that has, that's been a really critical thing we've been trying to figure out in this process. So yeah. Any, any other elements Brent that stood out to you in the definition?
[00:19:56] Brent Kruithof: Uh, yeah, um, I think the other As you're talking and and uh, as I was listening to that, I feel like another you know Big obstacle to overcome with discipleship is not just kind of defining what it is But um also, you know, I think that there's so much.
[00:20:12] Um There's so much hesitancy that people face in can I make disciples, you know, am I ready to do this? Is this something that i'm equipped to do? Uh, I think there's a lot of people who just feel like an inadequacy. Um, and so as we were talking about this process, and we were talking about how the apprenticeship model works, and all of that, it got me just thinking about how, even if people were to kind of understand the definition of discipleship the way that, that, um, Jesus disciples understood it, and Um, in their context, I think that there's still this, uh, this maybe, um, obstacle that they're trying to fit in that model into what it looks like in, in, you know, this day and age with their busy schedules and their family and how they're balancing work and how That's a challenge and I'm probably, you know, not the best person to disciple somebody else.
[00:21:05] So I think that, um, we, we need to get the definition of what, um, discipleship is. We need to understand, um, why it's a method, a good method for, um, for multiplication and advancing the kingdom. But I think it's, there's also this like, um, I think what, what spoke out to me the most was how you were saying that.
[00:21:28] Each person has been, should hopefully, have, have been, felt like they've received something from God. Either, you know, unlocked some skill or made some discovery that they can then, um, turn around and hand to somebody else. And I think that's the part that, that gets me excited, is when I see, oh man, this, when I unlocked this, it made such a difference in my family, or it made such a difference in my walk with Jesus.
[00:21:52] And that's the type of thing that gets me excited. Not only, like, feel, feel like, um, I'm able or qualified to share this skill with somebody else, but it gets me, like, excited to see, hey, I just made this discovery that I think is really going to bless you and is really going to help you. And, um, so I think that's an element to, to what discipleship looks like that I hope would kind of, uh, maybe inspire people to really pursue this definition of discipleship.
[00:22:18] Jeremy Pryor: It is really tough when you're thinking about, okay, I know I'm not perfectly following Jesus. And if I take on this apprentice, then are they going to learn my bad habits? Or like, how do I make sure that they're actually learning? Something that's going to really help them out. And this does require us, and this, Jesus didn't have to worry about this.
[00:22:36] Jesus was like, follow me in every single area of my life. You see me doing anything, it's all going to be helpful. And whereas for me, I'm like, okay, I've got to really define what are the elements where I am obeying Jesus. And that's kind of that final piece of the definition. You're not training people to follow you.
[00:22:55] You're training people to follow you as you follow Jesus in the areas in which you are obeying Jesus. And so, that requires this additional step for the kind of sub discipler, the person who's really pointing people towards Jesus, and that requires them to identify the areas of their life where they are following Jesus.
[00:23:13] So they can really center their disciple making on those areas. We actually have a process to help people kind of identify what those might be. And so there's like these five questions we ask people to answer when they're going through Life on Life. And the first is list five milestones of your spiritual journey.
[00:23:28] So, um, a lot of times you can discover the things that, where you obey Jesus by looking at the major turning points of your life. And these are some of the greatest areas in which you can, uh, really, uh, kind Show people from a life, you impart things that have happened in your life, like if you went through a really difficult, uh, season in your marriage, and you just, God brought you out of it, and you learned some amazing things about What it means to be a husband or a wife, man, that's, that's amazing.
[00:23:55] Like share that with the people that you are discipling, right? Again, focus, focus the time on what you, uh, kind of those areas where you're, you're obeying. You always be transparent as well. And just say, Hey, I'm still struggling in this area, this area, this area. You know, maybe my prayer life isn't where I really like it to be.
[00:24:13] I'm not going to really train you guys in that right now, but man, I've discovered something about how to do, you know, evangelism that I really want to share with you guys. This is something that I feel like is really, you know, deepened me or whatever areas, you know, so list five milestones of your spiritual journey, list five passages of scripture that have meant a lot to you.
[00:24:32] You know, for example, in my life, um, when I first began to understand the implications of the, um, Mark 10, where Jesus confronts the rich young ruler, it totally Rocked my life, and I I never got over it that's just a passage that like I often will come back to in discipleship because Not just because I'm like, oh, it's a really good passage But like it's just woven into my story like I was rocked when that passage Was really transformed my life.
[00:25:03] So let's sit list five of those list five rhythms you practice on a regular basis So I love to introduce people that I'm discipling to my morning, um, kind of time with the Lord, like how I go about constructing my walk with God, you know, in what that looks like on a daily basis. Um, that's a rhythm that I've been practicing and have been honing for many years.
[00:25:25] And so I can impart that. Um, there's other rhythms that, you know, I just, I've seen from other people, I'm like, wow, that sounds amazing, but I've never really. That's not just, that's not a regular part of my life. So I can't just pull a curriculum off the shelf and teach you to do something. I don't practice that would kind of violate the spirit of apprenticeship, but I can tell you the things where.
[00:25:46] You know, they have become a deep part of my life, um, list five general tactics that you regularly use that make your life more effective or productive. And so these are things that like, you know, people that have learned to, uh, this, some, some of these can even be in a more of the wisdom category. You know, you want to impart the way you work out and you want to impart the way that you eat.
[00:26:04] You want to impart the way that you budget, you want to impart the way that, you know, you lead your household. These are great things to apprentice people in. Um, these are elements in which they support your life of obedience to Christ, but they might overlap really well with the guys that, or the gals you're discipling.
[00:26:18] And then the last one is list five topics that just get you fired up more than the average person. You know, I get really fired up about fatherhood, you know? Um, so I'm going to talk about that a lot in my apprenticing with people. So yeah, this is, this is the, the part of it that needs to be customized to you.
[00:26:35] And this is why. I really resist like discipleship via a book or a pre, a pre planned or pre existing curriculum. I really encourage people to, that's why we have coaching so that we can actually help you build out the topics, uh, and help you understand how to impart those to people. Uh, that don't, it is not going to take a ton of prep on your part.
[00:26:56] It's not going to be this heavy lift. Um, so yeah, that's, that I think is a really, really critical element. So yeah, does that stir up anything more for you Brent or any other elements that, That hits you about the definition?
[00:27:08] Brent Kruithof: Uh, yeah, um, I mean, that is, you're talking about how we're different from Jesus, as Jesus discipled others.
[00:27:14] He was perfect in every way. And um, you know, we, we obviously are not. And so I think that's one of the benefits too, though, of us discipling is that as we are training somebody in a skill that we're not perfect at, it actually improves us as well. You know, like there is. Yeah. Absolutely. Not only are we passing on a skill, but we're honing that skill within us as we try to live it out, um, for the people that we are discipling.
[00:27:38] Um, so that's, uh, something that, that came to mind. Um,
[00:27:44] Jeremy Pryor: yeah, this, this stuff really is like reinforcing. Like, I think, I think it's really important. You know, people often don't fully learn a lesson until they can teach it to somebody else. And I do think that's like, One of the secret benefits to disciple making, you're going to go way deeper in whatever these areas are.
[00:28:02] If you start discipling people in them, it's going to reinforce it. I think a lot of times we, we take ground in the kingdom, take ground in our lives, and then we slowly lose it because we don't give it away. I think that is a regular occurrence. So yeah, and then I just want to emphasize like the very first part of this definition was that it's a process.
[00:28:21] In other words, people knew when they were a part of it. Like the disciples weren't, weren't confused. You have these parts in the Bible, again, the black and white parts, the parts that just tell us the how, how Jesus went about this. And, you know, there's stories in multiple Gospels where we can see that Jesus had much more than 12 people following him, but he hand picked 12 as, it says, those he wanted to be with him.
[00:28:43] And the night before, he spends all night in prayer with the, with the Father, really, I think, discerning who to call out, and he calls them by name. And that's why we have all the disciples names listed in the Gospels, because It was a process they knew they were a part of. And so I think that sometimes people are like, well, let's do it like Jesus.
[00:28:59] It's totally organic. You know, like we just disciple people by, you know, side conversations or grabbing coffee once in a while with people randomly or whatever. And man, I'm all for those things, but that's not what Jesus was doing. And I don't think that's what the disciples thought they were being commanded to do by Jesus.
[00:29:14] I think they, I think the disciples were like, we just went through it. Like we knew exactly, like, They weren't confused about about what the process was. They remember the day when Jesus like pointed at them and said come follow me You know They remember when Jesus came down from the mountain and said you guys are coming with me And so and one of the things that people might look at this and say well Okay, if we're really going to obey Jesus or do it the way he did it and shouldn't discipleship be three years long You know, and I think there's an argument for that.
[00:29:40] My concern about that is twofold. Number one, we're not perfect. And so there's diminishing returns after hanging out with me for about six months, you've gotten quite a bit from me, but now I'm starting to get down to the dregs. Um, and, and Jesus was an inexhaustible well of, of incredible teaching. And so, yeah, I could, there, there are some guys who I think can disciple.
[00:30:01] for a year or more. I think that's great. Um, I think that definitely could fit and fits the definition of discipleship. Um, but the other reason, and probably the reason why I'm a little more in favor of keeping it to something like six months is you need to make sure that people you're discipling are confident in their ability to reproduce what you're giving them.
[00:30:18] And so one of the things that I always want to be careful of is if you take people through a process that they absolutely love. But they're like, I could never do that for anyone else. Then it's not going to reproduce. And this is really the problem we have in the West. You see disciple making, multiplying in other contexts and other countries, but in our country, in our context, it doesn't tend to multiply.
[00:30:38] And I think there's multiple reasons. And we're going to like continue to tease those out on this podcast. But one of the reasons I just want to highlight right now is sometimes we do set the bar too high for people that aren't in full time ministry. Um, and so when you're talking about somebody who is in a very busy season or somebody who's a fairly young believer, but they've been through a few disciple making, um, you know journeys or seasons with different people, you want to make sure that they're able to begin to give that away.
[00:31:02] And and so you want to put the bar at a place where they can reach it. And so that's always a little bit of a an issue of discernment like how How intense do we make this? It's got to be intense enough that actually can create transformation in the lives of the disciples, the apprentices that we're taking on, but it also has to, the bar has got to be low enough so that a newer disciple who's, who's been following Jesus for three or four years could actually make disciples, uh, without feeling like, Oh my gosh, this is just way beyond me, maybe when I followed Jesus for 20 years, I can make my first disciple that, that just makes the bar too high.
[00:31:32] I mean, it just destroys all multiplication. And that's one of the things we're trying to understand. Why isn't this a movement the way that it was in the first century, the way that it is in many countries around the world, but not, not in our context. So that's, that's something that really stirs up for me.
[00:31:45] Brent Kruithof: And that, like, as you see, as you do life on life, too, because if you're just kind of talking about, uh, theory and talking about, hey, this is, uh, you know, you should, we should do this, um, family dinner night or we should, um, you know, um, discipline your kids in this way or be on mission in this way. Like, there might, those kind of seem like high bars when somebody's just describing it to you.
[00:32:07] But then when you actually say, Hey, come on over, let me show you what a family dinner night looks like, what a family Shabbat night looks like, then they see it and they're like, Oh, yeah, that's kind of messy. That's easy enough for me to do. Like, you, you, the bar is kind of lowered when you actually see somebody walk through that.
[00:32:22] It's still not saying it loses its power or its beauty. But it's like, okay, you know, you still had a little bit of mess in your house and your kids were talking through some of the time when you were doing blessings or something like that. But, but yeah, this is a bar that's attainable. And so that life on life, um, kind of, uh, walking it out apprentice style with somebody kind of does, uh, set that bar at the, at a level that is more attainable for people as they're considering what in their life they can pass on to others.
[00:32:49] Jeremy Pryor: Yes, exactly. Yeah. We want to make sure they see, uh, you, you want them to be, as they're going through the discipleship process, saying that to themselves, I could do this. I could do this. You know, I could see myself doing this. And so, yeah, if you make it completely out of reach if you're incredibly deep into theology and you're just like, you know, You you do these lengthy like teachings that and and these other these poor guys you're discipling around It's like that was amazing, but I would never be able to do that for somebody else Um, you just you need to practice a way of doing discipleship that they and maybe you know, slightly different topics You know again things that they're really good at maybe that you're not as good at um, But they could say yeah, I could categorically see how I could You reproduce what I've been given.
[00:33:34] So, uh, we really want to encourage you guys to consider this, consider a lifestyle of disciple making, you know, and so what we really advocate for is to take on one group a year. Um, just as a kind of a, an expectation for what it means to obey. Jesus's command to go and make disciples and if you're interested in doing that and doing that with us I think you can start a movement in whatever city you're at But you might require some coaching to make sure you really get a hold of a blueprint that fits this simple definition a process Of taking on apprentices to train them and how you follow Jesus.
[00:34:07] We can we can help you understand how to do that So jump over to onecase. org slash discipleship or just go on their website and click on discipleship We'd love to hear from you take you through a season of coaching where, uh, you'll go through the curriculum for how to develop your own disciple making practice.
[00:34:23] And so we'll figure out what that could look like in your context. And then we're going to be right there with you as you launch your first group. You know, we want to help you like figure out, okay, how do we, how do we really set this up? Well, so if you're listening to this thing, man, that sounds really cool, but man, I think I need a lot of help.
[00:34:36] We're, we're here to help. So we'd love to love to do that with you and for you. So let us know if we can help. And Brent, thanks so much for jumping on the podcast with me today.
[00:34:45] Brent Kruithof: Yeah. Thanks for having
[00:34:45] me.
