How To Disciple Disciple-Makers with Matt Massey
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Jeremy Pryor: [00:00:00] the two moves. If I could, let's just leave this with anybody. The two moves everyone has to make, if you're going to be a part [00:00:05] of a movement of disciple making in the west. You have to [00:00:10] [00:00:15] [00:00:20] [00:00:25] [00:00:30] [00:00:35] [00:00:40] [00:00:45] [00:00:50] [00:00:55]
Hey, hey everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm here with Matt Massey. [00:01:00] So Matt is a pastor at the, uh, the Vineyard Church here in Cincinnati. And, [00:01:05] uh, we got to know each other. Matt was a pastor of North Star with lots of mutual [00:01:10] friends, and y'all know that we are desperately trying to figure out here.
How do we make [00:01:15] disciples who make disciples? And so, um, when I talk about discipleship [00:01:20] in Cincinnati, Matt's name comes up all the time, not just from a [00:01:25] perspective of like, he cares about it, but he's done it. [00:01:30] And, um, and so I, I've, Matt, I know a lot of people that are the recipients of your [00:01:35] discipleship.
And so, um, I want to know more about like yeah. [00:01:40] How that happened, you know, how, how that's worked for you. And then we can kinda get into, you know, talking about what you guys [00:01:45] are doing at the vineyard and yeah, just kinda figure out like, how do we do this better? So, but [00:01:50] yeah. Welcome to the podcast, Matt.
Matt Massey: Thanks. Well, and, and I wanna say back, and this is not [00:01:55] like one pastor Pat and the other pastor on the back, one leader passing and the lead pat and the other leader on the back. But [00:02:00] staying back at you, you've been, your name has been around our city for a [00:02:05] long time and you've been up. A leader and a father in our city for a long time.
You have influence as a [00:02:10] disciple maker. You're really known as that. So it's really very cool. Nothing but a great reputation for you and [00:02:15] who you're,
Jeremy Pryor: praise God, man. I'm excited to be in this. Yeah. In this with you. Yeah. And [00:02:20] we're, we've got a great city. And, um, I want to see, and I know you want to see this [00:02:25] city become more obedient to Jesus as Lord, and, you know, and, and [00:02:30] that, that's both a question of like, are we committed to following him, but also are we [00:02:35] committed to.
Obeying his commands in the method that he's really been advocating for. And so, [00:02:40] yeah. Tell me a little bit about like your history and discipleship. When you hear that word disciple making [00:02:45] discipleship, what does that stir up? Kinda walk me through maybe a little bit of your evolution in, in terms of [00:02:50] how Yeah.
It functioned for you.
Matt Massey: So, I, I, I raised in a Christian home, [00:02:55] but got really serious, you know, walked away from God and did the whole atheist [00:03:00] agnostic thing, whatever, whatever that was in the, in the, in the eighties. [00:03:05] As a fraternity guy who was searching for identity, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, all that [00:03:10] stuff.
But anyway, I long, I'm not gonna tell the long story, but I, I, [00:03:15] Jesus found me, or, or Jesus pulled me into him in relation with him, my senior in college and I started walking with [00:03:20] Jesus. I got a job with Procter and Gamble. I was a marketing sales guy, [00:03:25] and, uh, here I was a new believer going to a church. [00:03:30] Uh, for the first time in my life.
'cause I wanted to, not because I was being made to go by [00:03:35] my mom and dad and I, I went to the, the youth pastor at the [00:03:40] time. I, and I was like a volunteer guy. Like, I was like, I came in and said, Hey, I like, can I [00:03:45] volunteer? And I said, would you help me grow? Knows ever, ever helped me grow? I mean, I grew up in the [00:03:50] church, but you know, I knew the stories.
Adam and Eve ate an apple, right? Like, [00:03:55] and, and, and the animals came on the boat two by two. This little sweet story where [00:04:00] everyone dies, you know, these, these stories that like, you know, so sweet. And I remember right, right. I [00:04:05] remember reading, you know, some, someone handing me a Bible and say, read it. And I started reading, [00:04:10] you know, they said Start in the New Testament and I had never really read the Bible.
I'd [00:04:15] heard the stories and I, I, I remember reading Matthew about, you know, the, the birth [00:04:20] of Jesus and. Then he lives and die, teaches lives and dies and rises [00:04:25] again. I turn over to Mark, it's like, wait, the story story started over again. Wait, wait. He's, he's a [00:04:30] baby again. You know, not, not in Mark, but whatever.
And I, at four times, and I, and no one explained this to me, so I [00:04:35] go to this guy and said, would you explain to me how it all works? And here he is. I didn't [00:04:40] get it at the time. He's a pastor of the church. And he looked at me like I had three eyes. [00:04:45] Like you, uh, just be a volunteer in the youth ministry. But [00:04:50] he had no grid.
This guy was a full-time guy, had no grid for [00:04:55] helping me grow up me, and he just threw me into doing stuff. Okay. Which is [00:05:00] a recipe for burnout. Just, okay, do do events with kids taking to play [00:05:05] paintball and read your Bible and don't have sex and don't drink, right? It was like, it was like, [00:05:10] these are right, these are the, this is, this was, and, and he had no grid.
[00:05:15] For, for disciple making. It wasn't even his thing. And then in there [00:05:20] somewhere, I mean, I, it was, it's at the time I wouldn't say I was frustrated 'cause I didn't know any [00:05:25] better, but I, I felt a, a frustration 'cause it just was about legalism [00:05:30] and works and rules. And in that process someone handed me Robert Coleman's [00:05:35] Master Plan of Evangelism.
Awesome book. Yeah. Right. I read it and [00:05:40] thought, well, this isn't happening. And because I was a Tide guy, I was selling [00:05:45] Tide, I, I had enough awareness. Like when I first started with Proctor and Gimel, [00:05:50] my manager said to me, Hey, if we sell lots of Tide, if we market, sell lots of Tide, we all [00:05:55] win. Like, like don't try to sell biz.
Don't try to sell era [00:06:00] cheer. These are names you've never even heard of. Cheer these other things like, but you go to a grocery [00:06:05] today. Three-fourths of the aisle is tied. Yeah. And I went, took over [00:06:10] and, and I thought this, this Robert Coleman thing, if I get two friends [00:06:15] and you get two friends and so on, you know, the, the, the shampoo agree commercial people that are younger don't [00:06:20] remember that, and so on and so on and so on.
I was a marketing guy, I thought do the [00:06:25] disciple making thing, let's, and so just, it was a Holy Spirit intuitive thing, but no one taught [00:06:30] me how to do it. No one said. And, and I, and I was a young leader [00:06:35] begging for someone disciple me. And then, and then I'm reading Coleman's book. And so I just started meeting with [00:06:40] guys and I failed at every turn.
Every turn I failed, but I just knew [00:06:45] I wanted to, so I just, there's this Holy Spirit passion in me that [00:06:50] I, I could have a young life club and I did. Young life. You were a youth pastor as well?
Jeremy Pryor: [00:06:55] Mm-hmm.
Matt Massey: Um, I had a young club of a hundred students and then. [00:07:00] And then one of our students died and then we became 250 and, and I was like, this is great.
But, [00:07:05] so I got two 50 comes kids coming. So is there life change? Yeah. [00:07:10] So they, so I'm, I'm a fun communicator and we do fun games, [00:07:15] so, you know, and you'd see them just, you see these kids just kind of [00:07:20] hanging there for a while. Then you'd see five years later there's nothing, you know, nothing that [00:07:25] happened.
Where was the change? Where was the transformation? Where was the. Them doing it with [00:07:30] other people like, like being in the Kama make you fishers of men and then you go and make disciples [00:07:35] of all nations, right? Mm-hmm. So my process, why I saw that [00:07:40] this is the thing, but at the very same time I was clueless.
For [00:07:45] years, I was just grabbing, guys, let's meet, let's grab coffee and let's grow together. But it was like, [00:07:50] it's like, you know, uh, and then I went to [00:07:55] seminary. In my late twenties thinking that would help and that did not help at all. [00:08:00] Right. Why is that? Yeah.
Jeremy Pryor: Oh gosh.
Matt Massey: Isn't that sad? You went to Gordon [00:08:05] Kawell, right?
I went to, it did Ted's up in Chicago, Trinity, and there was, there was one [00:08:10] class, one class on disciple making. [00:08:15] Uh, I did, I did get to study in one class under Robert Coleman, and he was, [00:08:20] oh. He was towards the end of his life and he was asleep the whole, so [00:08:25] I didn't learn much, but it was like I was in, you know, this very spiritual, amazing guy.
He was towards the end of his life. [00:08:30] Uh, but so it just, the one class was a guy named Chris Sabo who [00:08:35] said, you've gotta make this your number one priority in life.
Jeremy Pryor: Hmm.
Matt Massey: But then often [00:08:40] I'm just, sorry, I'm just spit ball. But then, then, then I kind of found the more we [00:08:45] move towards disciple making, we stopped doing evangelism.
Yeah. 'cause no one taught that you [00:08:50] do. It's, you know, interconnected if you're, yes, you're really about the [00:08:55] holistic disciple making. It's leading people to Christ, sharing the gospel, teaching them the [00:09:00] full gospel, the full story, and then helping them grow up in that story and then replicate [00:09:05] that in lost people and helping people.
But it just, so it's been trial and [00:09:10] error and learning as I go. Failing a lot. Um, yeah. [00:09:15] So that's, but it's been in my bones. Yeah. You know. Like I said, I'm only [00:09:20] 39 now, so it's been in my bones. Uh, well, I'm 58 now, and it's been in my [00:09:25] bones since I was like 24. It's really has been like, this is what we've got to do, but I [00:09:30] failed a lot.
Yeah. I made a program. I, I mean, you can't [00:09:35] programatize it. And yet, you know, you gotta have a pathway. That's right. There's this tension, [00:09:40] right? Like, that's what I, I wanna learn more from guys like you. How do you take this, [00:09:45] this, um, mandate, this call? To live the great commandment and [00:09:50] to do the great commission.
Yes. Do, I mean, keep these two things [00:09:55] synonymous and then not making a program, but also do it with intentionality. So, [00:10:00]
Jeremy Pryor: mm,
Matt Massey: I'm ready to learn from you.
Jeremy Pryor: Well, I, yeah. This is, I, I, one of the [00:10:05] things that I love about your story is even though it wasn't modeled, you know, initially [00:10:10] you could see it, you know, one of the things that's so powerful is that it's right there in the great commission.[00:10:15]
And it's so strategically placed, like the last thing Jesus said before [00:10:20] he leaves, Hey guys, this is what I want you to do. All authority has been given to me. Right? And so it's really, [00:10:25] to me, it's such a litmus test for whether or not somebody is interested in [00:10:30] obey Jesus. Like, um, if you're, if you, if you're a believer listening to this and [00:10:35] you have made a disciple in the last five to 10 years.
I'm like, oh my gosh. Oh, [00:10:40] uh, maybe you're not a disciple. Yeah. Is it, is it not clear enough? I mean, it seems like [00:10:45] that would be impossible to argue, like it could not be clear. So, so you saw [00:10:50] that, um, Robert Coleman's book, master Plan of Evangelism, which is, you know, one of the things that's interesting about [00:10:55] Coleman's book is, you know, he basically in that book, you know, unpacks Jesus' [00:11:00] method of, of disciple making, like how he brought these guys together, how there was [00:11:05] life transformation.
Um, one of the biggest problems obviously we have is that culturally. [00:11:10] We don't have rabbis walking around with their disciples, you know? Um, and so [00:11:15] it's, it's like we're not getting
Matt Massey: dust on ourselves.
Jeremy Pryor: That's right. We've, we're not
Matt Massey: getting, yeah, yeah, yeah. We've
Jeremy Pryor: [00:11:20] gotta figure out how to do this today. Like, and so I, I, I have a lot of patience for people who [00:11:25] have a, like a how problem with discipleship.
I. I have a lot of frustration [00:11:30] with people that have a willingness problem. Like, I won't do it. I'm not interested. It's like, whoa. You [00:11:35] know? Um, but the how problem is real, um, it's not, it's not made up. It's like, how do we do this? [00:11:40] So yeah. Walk me through a little bit about, so I, I know that, you know, so we've got a lot of mutual [00:11:45] friends and those of you guys who've, you know, like, uh, have listened to a lot of our podcasts, [00:11:50] mark Derman.
They were actually a group together with you, Matt, for I don't know how long back, A couple [00:11:55] years way. Yeah. Yeah. They were really impacted. These guys are bearing so much fruit. [00:12:00] Um, I, I would love to hear, yeah. What, um, you know, [00:12:05] and you can walk me through how you got here, but I'm also just interested in, okay, like, what is a year in [00:12:10] the life of Matt Massey's disciple making look like?
What do you, what do you practice now? What does it look like? How, [00:12:15] what do you, what have you worked on and
Matt Massey: like right now, in 2025 or like, what's been the process, the evolution? [00:12:20]
Jeremy Pryor: Either one. You can, you can walk me into it and then like, but I really [00:12:25] wanna hear Yeah. What, what does it, yeah. What does it tactically look like?
Gimme some nuts and bolts on what it looks like for you. [00:12:30]
Matt Massey: So, yeah. Uh, great question. I, I think I'll start with [00:12:35] just to give people that are listening, like, uh, freedom to know that [00:12:40] there's no experts in this. Like you just said in the how, in terms of the how. [00:12:45] And I have failed a lot. So I remember it, so, so it started with me just [00:12:50] saying, you know what I, I had this, I left Procter and Gamble and I was doing the student ministry, and I would just grab [00:12:55] guys.
I thought we're hungry. The, the classic faithful available, teachable. You know, we, [00:13:00] we get canceled for saying fat today. Like, that's not a, not kind. That's fat shaming. Yeah, right, [00:13:05] right. Fat shaming. You can't, back in the day it was like, find people that are fat, faithful, available, teachable. So I would, [00:13:10] uh, grab either a brand new believer or a, uh, a, a seasoned young [00:13:15] believer.
And in those days it was always, usually younger than me. I didn't, I didn't know [00:13:20] that I could, I could. Do that with guys or my age, right? I don't believe in meeting with opposite [00:13:25] wife does that. That's a personal. [00:13:30] A value that I think is important for me anyway. Um, so, but I would meet with these guys and, [00:13:35] and, uh, we would, uh, either we'd go through a book of the Bible and it was kind of thrown, like throwing darts, right?
We, [00:13:40] we wanna be abiding with Jesus. We wanna be connected in the word, we want to be having [00:13:45] spiritual conversations. But it could either be as formal as we're gonna go through the book of Matthew and then we're gonna go through the book of [00:13:50] Mark. We go, you know, and, and, and, or then it would be like, Hey, we'll just show up twice a month.[00:13:55]
We'll get together for coffee for, you know, I had a lot more time back then. Two hours, we'll [00:14:00] maybe we'll play Frisbee golf and we'll sit down and talk a spiritual thing, you know, we'll work out together and have a spiritual [00:14:05] conversation. But, and, and, and I would move from wheeling. I was always intentional [00:14:10] about meeting, but I wasn't always intentional about what we did.
And that was kind of a moving [00:14:15] target. 'cause I was the, how I struggling with the how, how do you do this? And I remember [00:14:20] a, a, a turning point for me was. Probably 15. [00:14:25] Uh, I, I don't remember when the whole Mike Green stuff came to the forefront. Yeah. Maybe 15, 20 years ago. I don't [00:14:30] remember how long ago now, but I was sitting with a guy that I met with for four years.[00:14:35]
Four years. I'm just pouring into like twice a month. So much.
Jeremy Pryor: Yeah.
Matt Massey: Right. So much. Right. And [00:14:40] I'm giving him my, and I'm not gonna say his name. He is a great guy and he is disciple making [00:14:45] now, uh, I don't wanna embarrass him, uh, but I looked at him and said, Hey, are you. [00:14:50] You psyching anybody? Like, are you meeting with anybody?
He's like, nah. [00:14:55] I mean, I'm like, why not? Like, I don't know what [00:15:00] to do. Yeah. And I'm like, you've been meeting for four [00:15:05] years. Like, wow, what? And I, [00:15:10] and I, and I, you know, part of me wanted to immediately blame him, and then part of me wanted to immediately blame [00:15:15] me, who's bad in this equation? Right. And I was like, you know, uh.
Immediately [00:15:20] thought of it. I, I remember immediately thinking of the movie, cool Hand Loop. What we have [00:15:25] here is a communicate, you know, or, or then I also remember the Howard Hendricks [00:15:30] quote, if there's a, if there's a mist in the pulpit, there's gonna be a fog in the [00:15:35] pew. Mm-hmm. And clearly there was a mist in my pulpit as I shared, I was [00:15:40] like, I clearly was not setting clear expectations.
[00:15:45] And then there's a fog in the, in the rec. And I, and I started asking all the guys I was meeting with, [00:15:50] and my, this is gonna sound crass, but my batting average of the guys I was [00:15:55] meeting with who were then going out to disciple others was not that high. Mm-hmm. It was [00:16:00] just not that high. And I'm going and, and you had the Mark Tomans.
Yeah. Who just naturally picked up a ran. [00:16:05] Yeah. And I like why did.[00:16:10]
Tieman, if you're listening, he's a pit bull. He's one of the Yes. He's a stud. Right? And, [00:16:15] and Brent's a stud. These guys picked up and ran like, that wasn't me actually, [00:16:20] that was the Holy Spirit in them. But why did they pick it up and run?
Jeremy Pryor: Right.
Matt Massey: And I, and I, [00:16:25] I started, so I, I, the mist, I can't make someone pick it up and run, but the mist in the [00:16:30] pulpit for me was.
The selection process that Coleman talks about [00:16:35] and in the selection process being very clear up front. So where, where I am today, the life, [00:16:40] what's changed for me in the last is I look at a guy or a group of guys, I say, [00:16:45] I'm inviting you in regardless of you're in the journey to be a disciple [00:16:50] maker. We've changed the language.
I'm not inviting you to DEC discipleship. I've been asking guys this question [00:16:55] the last couple years, what's the difference between a small group [00:17:00] discipleship group? Disciple maker group. That's so good, right? [00:17:05] Mm-hmm. And small groups like, oh, I dunno, we have food together. We, that's not [00:17:10] bad. It's community.
And, but you could be in one of those for years. Yep. And just never [00:17:15] go anywhere, never be on mission. That's not bad. Right? It's like we [00:17:20] like community, um, and communities and, and end and a means, right? [00:17:25] But in discipleship, it's all about, well, you're my, you're my [00:17:30] teacher. You're, you're my rabbi. Mm-hmm. And I'm waiting for you to tell me when and how, and [00:17:35] I'm waiting for you to feed me, feed me Seymour.
Right. Like in Disciple, but disciple. And, [00:17:40] and, and I was, I was part of the problem because I liked being the teacher. [00:17:45] I liked being the, the, I would've never called me, but I liked being the rabbi. I liked being the, [00:17:50] I'm gonna call Matt to get an answer. I'm like, that's kind of, it's kind of gross. And I didn't [00:17:55] realize that.
The big problem with me was, before we start, hey. [00:18:00] You will do this with others and make the agreement. If you can't make the agreement right now, [00:18:05] then we're not gonna do it. We're not gonna do it. Let's just agree right now. This is what [00:18:10] we, that's what Jesus did with the disciples. You will come, you're gonna make fishers.
He, he started fishers of man. Yeah. And what do [00:18:15] we, what do we guess were the disciples? Like 15, 13, 14, 15, 16. [00:18:20] Yeah. Young, right? Maybe Peter was the only one over 21 due to the whole [00:18:25] Bima story. Go.[00:18:30]
And I, I, so it was on me to go pick them and Jesus [00:18:35] flipped us on and to go say to them, I'm inviting you, not 'cause I'm great. We're [00:18:40] inviting you in to join me in this for a season and you have to do this other. If you [00:18:45] say now, if you don't wanna do it, don't. It's okay. Yeah, I'll go get somebody else. [00:18:50] But so much of my discipling was.
It was a glorified [00:18:55] small group that I wanted to call it this. It really was, we'd get around and we'd talk about Jesus and what [00:19:00] Jesus had done their life. And Did you read the scripture that we talked about? No. Okay. I'll read it [00:19:05] to you. 'cause you're an idiot and I'm, and I've gotta feed you. Right. And I, and I didn't call them up.
[00:19:10] Birdie.
Jeremy Pryor: Yeah. Oh man. Right.
Matt Massey: You little birdie because I'll feed you because you need me. And [00:19:15] I didn't call him up as opposed to saying, Hey, this is what we're going to do. And if you so [00:19:20] let just flash forward to 2025, man. Two young guys, uh, I'll say one of their names [00:19:25] 'cause he would love me to say his name, but he, he'll never listen to this.
He's 18 years old. Uh, [00:19:30] uh, young guy at, at, at King's High School. He plays football and I just got the privilege of leading him to [00:19:35] Christ last fall on the football team. He and a buddy, I said, alright, this is what we do. [00:19:40] Followers follow Jesus and followers become fishers of men. [00:19:45] So this is what we're gonna do.
Do you wanna join me? He looks at me goes, yeah. Yeah. Like, like [00:19:50] smoking pot. Looking at porn, hook up with girls. I said, Hey, [00:19:55] you're not gonna quit that right away. We're gonna be in the process and you will do this with a group [00:20:00] of guys. So when the time comes, you will. So do you wanna do it? [00:20:05]
Jeremy Pryor: Yeah.
Matt Massey: He's starting a small group next week.
He's been a [00:20:10] follower of Jesus since November and he's starting a small [00:20:15] group with some, a disciple maker group next week.
Jeremy Pryor: So he's been a believer for like [00:20:20] five, four or five months.
Matt Massey: Or five months. Wow, that's awesome. And we've been meeting and, and [00:20:25] I'm walking with him and his friend and we're walking through this is what a disciple, you know, it's not, trying not to [00:20:30] complicate it.
And now we're, we try to get more in the how, you know, be with borrowing [00:20:35] John Mark comer's language. Be with, become like duty ditch. Trying keep it simple. Yes. You know, we're [00:20:40] gonna spend time abiding. I just got a text from him today. He goes, why am I so angry? Why do I [00:20:45] get angry? I said, why do you think? He goes, I'm not abiding enough.
Okay, we're getting the language and you'll abide more. And [00:20:50] I, and then he texted back, holy Spirit is changing me. Okay. How do you teach that to others? It's fruit of the [00:20:55] spirit. So anyway, it's, it's, am I batting a thousand on that? No. But I, I [00:21:00] think the secret sauce for me in this last season of my, in this most [00:21:05] recent season of my life had been real clear with it.
With expectations. Yeah. And I've didn't do that for a [00:21:10] long time. Hmm. I failed on that phrase a long time. Well, it's,
Jeremy Pryor: yeah. You're, [00:21:15] you're, yeah. You're touching on something that, so there's something happened to the language of disciple making that, [00:21:20] uh, I think is really tricky. So, you know, I, I remember way back in the [00:21:25] whatever, um, I guess it was the, uh, late eighties when I, I [00:21:30] was, so, my, my first ex experience of disciple making, uh, I was in high [00:21:35] school and.
I read Dawson Trotman biography. Oh my gosh. And I was just [00:21:40] like, blown away. I was like, slam just shocked me. Right? Um, and I was like, oh my gosh, [00:21:45] this is, this is what, this is what it, like, this is what I've been missing. And, and so I actually like organized a discipleship [00:21:50] conference at my church. I. Three guys who were at what,
Matt Massey: 17 years old
Jeremy Pryor: I was, yeah.
How [00:21:55] old
Matt Massey: you then?
Jeremy Pryor: That's great. It was fun. And so they, they had these different, but, but the thing that was different back then [00:22:00] was everyone, everyone saw discipleship through kind of the navigator's lens. Everybody I met, they [00:22:05] were, you know, who's your man? 1 0 1 and like, and it was all about reproduction.
[00:22:10] Today, when people say the word discipleship, they can mean almost anything that relates to [00:22:15] growth in their own faith. That, that's, a lot of people don't realize that, that that is a, that is a [00:22:20] shift in definition. And I think this is why you rightly call out that we kind of have to [00:22:25] move now the conversation to this phrase, disciple maker.
Um, and I love what you said, what, what are [00:22:30] the difference between a small group discipleship and, uh, disciple making? So, you know, small group [00:22:35] feels like, okay, the, the, the end goal is community. Discipleship feels like the end goal is [00:22:40] consuming content or consuming like learnings, right? That's right.
Disciple making Really, uh, [00:22:45] that does sound like I'm being activated to do something. I'm on mission. Yeah, yeah, [00:22:50] that's right. So I love that. Like, yeah, let's just, let's, okay. I think discipleship used to mean disciple making. It doesn't [00:22:55] really anymore. Right. So we're gonna have to pivot here
Matt Massey: a little bit.
That's right. Totally agree and use that language. That's, [00:23:00] that's great. That's great. Cut. By the way, that that book. Do. Yes. Just slammed me in [00:23:05] the Did it really? You too. Whoa, whoa. He's just like [00:23:10] to the wall, man. It was Holy cow.
Jeremy Pryor: Yeah, that that changed my.
Matt Massey: Oh [00:23:15] yeah. Great. Yeah,
Jeremy Pryor: I was just coming out of, um, I had mono, so I was like basically in bed for about three [00:23:20] months, and while I was coming outta this fog and I felt like just so, so icky, like [00:23:25] I was just in my flesh all the time playing video games, trying to like falling asleep every like.[00:23:30]
Hour. Um, it was a horrible year of my life and, um, it was [00:23:35] like the contrast. And then I was reading das, and this is like, I exploded out of this, my [00:23:40] sick bed. Like, ah, we, this is the mission. So, um, but [00:23:45] okay.
Matt Massey: Real quick, real quick. What was your video game? What was your video game? You It was, it was
Jeremy Pryor: one of the early versions of Final Fantasy [00:23:50] in the, the NES.
Um, you know, so little, uh, little like eight bit characters [00:23:55] running around the screen, like taking over, uh, it's very much like disciple making, taking over. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:24:00] Yeah. That's great. That's right. Um, okay, so, uh, so now [00:24:05] you've, you've really refocused a lot of your efforts on, okay, I need to make sure I pick in the beginning [00:24:10] stages, early stages, somebody who already knows they're already signing up to be activated.
Like we, [00:24:15] we are going to reproduce. And that is a condition of my. [00:24:20] Investing in you and that that's a really, like, I love how you call that, that, that Jesus did that. This isn't like, I [00:24:25] think a lot of people feel like, oh no. In the church we just, we have this endless amounts of [00:24:30] like, basically, um, I don't know, like, like a kind of compassion that says that [00:24:35] everyone gets access to our time and our energy.
Um, and there [00:24:40] it's, it's sort of how inappropriate to filter that in any way. How do you, have you dealt with that, that challenge, especially as [00:24:45] being a pastor? I'm sure you've got. People, you're like, oh man, you know, there's a lot of investment [00:24:50] they need. Um, but you're, you're, you really believe, okay, no, I'm [00:24:55] called to invest my disciple making efforts in particular people.
Like, how do you think about that?
Matt Massey: [00:25:00] Well, you just described as counseling, right? And counseling's good. Right? [00:25:05] Counseling's not important. Like, like some, some people need counseling. Yeah. This is not that. Yeah. This is [00:25:10] not counseling. Right. This is being does, does, does, do we, do we iron [00:25:15] sharp? Do, do we help each other grow as I'm in your deci, you've called me up, you invite me [00:25:20] into a disciple maker group.
Do I process my struggle with porn with you? Sure. [00:25:25] Do I process my struggle with anger with you? Sure. Yeah. Do we process those things? [00:25:30] Yes, but, but I think we've turned it into counseling [00:25:35] and I think pastors think that. We've gotta be [00:25:40] everyone's counselor or we're, or pastors, I'm, I'm gonna slam my, slam my tribe for a second, [00:25:45] or we move to the CEO model.
Mm-hmm. It's like, no, I'm just running organization. Right. It's all about how many people I [00:25:50] can get, how many butts I can get in seats. Again, I'm, I just, I'm gonna do a tangent. I [00:25:55] just sat with a, um, a couple weeks ago, a bunch of lead pastors and, and [00:26:00] I said, how many of you guys are disciple making apprenticing?[00:26:05]
And literally 20 guys two. Wow. Two [00:26:10] lead pastors and, and they mean well, but they're, they're busy pulling off a [00:26:15] Sunday morning, Sunday morning gathering, which is not discipleship and not disciple making. [00:26:20] Right. It's, it's a, it's a concert. It's great. It's a front door, right? [00:26:25] Not, nothing wrong with it. Right.
We just made it first. Yes, we made it the priority. [00:26:30] So, I'm sorry, I'm, I'm tangenting you asking question. No, you're really good questions. Sorry. I, [00:26:35]
Jeremy Pryor: well, I, I wanna understand, there's a couple things I, I'm like, I really wanna drill into one, one of the [00:26:40] things is I think that, and I wanted to talk to you about, you know, the, [00:26:45] the difference between a pastor making disciples.
[00:26:50] And sort of your average, uh, disciple making disciples. Yeah. Yeah. Um, one of the things that I've, I've [00:26:55] noticed is that pastors have a ton of content. Like they, they, they have a lot to [00:27:00] impart. And so the process that a pastor can often initiate into somebody can take a long [00:27:05] time, and Jesus took three years.
And so it seems natural that it, it could take a long time. I, [00:27:10] I am, I am. I've been advocating. Or a disciple making model [00:27:15] where, um, uh, it takes, it's about a five to six month intensive and that, [00:27:20] that people do this with multiple people. Yeah. The reason I've done that, and the people that [00:27:25] most like push back on that are, are pastors because they [00:27:30] feel like they're just getting started.
My challenge to that is, but the guys you're [00:27:35] discipling, that's a very high bar to spend a, you know, a year or two years with somebody. [00:27:40] Um, uh, if, if you're in, and a lot of my like understanding of [00:27:45] discipleship is, it's really impartation. It's not just going through curriculum, but it's like, what is in me, I've [00:27:50] gotta impart it to you.
That's right. It is an apprenticeship and so therefore I can only give you what I have. [00:27:55] And so that's right. So you've got this young guy who's like in high school. He's only been a believer [00:28:00] for, you know, five or six months, he's got things to impart. It's time for him to start to [00:28:05] activate and, and do that.
Um, however, yeah. What, what are your thoughts about just this, this [00:28:10] length, uh, challenge? I, because I, this is an open question.
Matt Massey: I could not agree with you more [00:28:15] personally. I could not agree with you more. I think we've over complicated it. Okay. And it, [00:28:20] there's this, there's this tension that I see in the pastor world of either, man, this is a, this [00:28:25] is three years, it's gotta be a seminary course, right?
Yes, exactly. And we've gotta give you everyth, we've gotta give you [00:28:30] everything. Right? Yeah, yeah. Well that, that plays back to Genesis 11. Well, which is predestination. Yeah. Which [00:28:35] forward to, it's like, it's like, oh my goodness. Right? So, so we've, we throw in [00:28:40] everything and then, then we, then we complicate with.
Or can we get this done in [00:28:45] eight weeks? Can we do an eight week class? Boom. And, and just, I, I'm give, and then we're, [00:28:50] you know, hog tied and we're done. Right. But it is what you process and I'm, [00:28:55] we've gotta simplify it. Less is more. Yeah. Simplify into, [00:29:00] uh, again, I, I think, um, give them, give them [00:29:05] the core big principles that, and, and say, this is a lifetime of [00:29:10] walking through these principles.
It's a lifetime. Right. And as you and, and, and so, but I'm [00:29:15] gonna give you the core principles and then I'm gonna stay connected with you when we're done. Yeah. I'm gonna stay [00:29:20] connected as a friend. We're for, we're a forever life. And, and as you're meeting with these other people, we'll keep talking like, how [00:29:25] do I process that?
Right. How do I, how do I, so, so, I'm, I'm, so [00:29:30] I, what, what it looks like for me right now and, and what we're trying to do at our church [00:29:35] is, um. We started with our, with our 18 best [00:29:40] disciplers, and we thought, man, these, these really get it. And they [00:29:45] really get, they really value the heart of people. They value that people matter first.
And we're about, [00:29:50] it's not about just about inseminating uh, disseminating information, but it's [00:29:55] about, you know, first I was is two eight, right? We, we, we show them. [00:30:00] We, we, we share within the gospel and our lives as well, right? Like it's, we're, we're, we're, we're [00:30:05] being in connection, but I'm not gonna give you everything.
So we say we invite someone into [00:30:10] a, a, a one year 26 meeting [00:30:15] process. We're trying to toggle that balance between three years. Yeah. And, [00:30:20] and five, I'm, I'm sure your five month intensive is probably the same amount of time [00:30:25] as our, you know, you probably. Slam it through five months. We're trying to just say, all right, whatever.
We're [00:30:30] just trying to figure out the how. I don't, you know, whatever. So it's 26 [00:30:35] meetings, Hangouts with a group. Okay. A triad of three to [00:30:40] four. Okay. And we start with the why. I remember, this is why we're doing [00:30:45] this. We're all disciple makers. We're, we're not just disciples, we're disciple [00:30:50] makers. At the end of this time, we're gonna do it.
Here's the Holy Spirit in the process. Here's here you can't [00:30:55] do without the Holy Spirit. And then we go into seven weeks on be with Jesus [00:31:00] abiding John. We camp out on John 15 for the entire seven weeks. Okay. [00:31:05] Having in the first five weeks camping out on John 14 and John 16, this is how we're trying to [00:31:10] do it.
Yeah. And then the next seven, Jesus.[00:31:15]
I, I can't believe we, we do the character and nature of Jesus in three weeks. That's a joke. I [00:31:20] know, right? Like, and then our identity in Christ is who you are in Christ and [00:31:25] understanding that, you know, so anyway, and then we, the last seven weeks are what Jesus did, and it is a, [00:31:30] we're building the plane as we go.
It's question based, and we're leading through and [00:31:35] very much like Midrash trying to, here's the passage, let's midrash that.
Which you guys, I think [00:31:40] beautifully did through Story Farm Life, but I think it's still a great tool. And within this, [00:31:45] we resource the people. Hey, do it deeper deep. Do a deeper dive on this and, and we're saying [00:31:50] you got a lot of homework to do between now and next meeting. We give 'em a lot to read. Because we're like, [00:31:55] the bar has been raised.
Yeah. You know, and, and, and read this book, read that [00:32:00] thing. Read this passage, read this. You know. Anyway, so we just, that's what we do at the end of the [00:32:05] time. The last, that last third is who are yours and what? And, and, and I'm gonna [00:32:10] continue to be a resource to you. Mm. As you continue to go. 'cause you're not, it's not exhaustive.
I'm, [00:32:15] you're 50 years old. I'm 50 years old. Last time I checked, I'm not fully informed. [00:32:20] Yeah. And I think the problem with my tribe. Those of us that go to [00:32:25] seminary. Seminary is wonderful, is we think we've gotta disseminate everything, right? And it's almost a [00:32:30] way to justify my existence if I can, if I can be the expert.
I, I, I, [00:32:35] I love Hebrew, I love Greek. I think, you know, when, when we share Hebrew and Greek from the stage, for [00:32:40] example, what we're basically saying to the audience is, you're not smart enough to get this. It's, it's un, it's [00:32:45] unapproachable, and we've got, we gotta, it's, this [00:32:50] is approachable. This is doable and attainable for a 70-year-old [00:32:55] guy who is just learning what the Bible is.
I I, I've got a group [00:33:00] of uc guys that are not part of, they're not disciple maker group. These guys are all two. One [00:33:05] one's a, one's a brand new believer, and I go down with them on, go down with them on Thursdays. These guys know [00:33:10] nothing. This is a pre-Christian group, right? I mean, one of the first groups, a [00:33:15] guy said, honest to goodness, who the F is Jesus.
And I, I laughed. [00:33:20] I was like, oh, wow, okay. This, this is where we are, 2024. This is a fall, last [00:33:25] fall, Mike. But, but I am not asking him to do it, to do a group yet. And I, but I am, [00:33:30] no, I'm gonna give him exhaustive knowledge of well, in who the Holy Spirit was, the [00:33:35] etymology bill. He's like, what? I'm like, like he substantiation, you [00:33:40] know, um, justification, sanctification.
These are all great words, but I am not gonna [00:33:45] give them a. We're just trying to get him to walk with Jesus and walk with us as we [00:33:50] walk with Jesus, and then give a vision for you can do this too. So that's how we're trying to do it. That's
Jeremy Pryor: great. [00:33:55] I love that. I love all three of those, those moves. And I think that final move, if you [00:34:00] don't bake into the process itself, reproduction, this is one of the things we've learned is you [00:34:05] can't, you can't just have it as a vague expectation.
You actually have to disciple. [00:34:10] Those, that's right. Apprentices into their first group, into their discipleship, and then they've [00:34:15] got to do the same. That's the only way you're gonna get to that third, fourth generation way. So, and, and Yeah, go ahead.
Matt Massey: By the way, can I [00:34:20] say something about that? Like Yeah. One of the things, I mean the Mike Green stuff, I dunno if you looked at that stuff, right.
But the, the life [00:34:25] shapes there was, again, we tried that when I was at North Star and it just fell flat for [00:34:30] reasons, whatever. Um, but I think one of the things we did is we would end the group [00:34:35] and then say, all right, now go get. Go get your guys. [00:34:40] But I think what we're, what I'm doing now is before we finish, you're gonna start, so the last [00:34:45] chunk, they, they started and there's an overlap.
That's, there's healthy shame there. [00:34:50] Like, we're not leaving
Jeremy Pryor: until you get your guys That's right. I haven't made you a disciple maker [00:34:55] until you are a disciple maker.
Matt Massey: That's right. And I'm gonna, it's actually like shame. I'm gonna,
Jeremy Pryor: we can know that I'm gonna
Matt Massey: healthily shame [00:35:00] the crap outta you. I'm gonna, I'm gonna healthily.
This is where shame is good. Other, otherwise shame is of the devil. [00:35:05] We'll use word, but anyway. Shame the cru outta you. Get your [00:35:10] guys, get your guys. We're not leaving until you got your guys. Yes. Uh, 'cause we agreed. Yeah. And, and, [00:35:15] and then they come back and like, oh my gosh, this is the most fun thing I've ever done.
I'm scared to death. That's good. And [00:35:20] I, we literally walked them through, here's how you invite them. Here's what you say. It's [00:35:25] okay if they say no. Like one of my teammates. Clay says, you know, when you get rejected, put [00:35:30] your hand on your heart. Oh yeah. It's so beaten. I'm okay. We'll be we'll be okay. I'm alive, right?
[00:35:35] So, but we're trying it, this is years of, and, and, and probably two years from now, maybe even a year [00:35:40] from now, I'll say to you, Jeremy, that didn't work. Like, [00:35:45] what? But what I do know is you gotta be in the game, right? You gotta be, yeah. You gotta
Jeremy Pryor: go for it. Yep. You gotta try it. And [00:35:50] you've been, you've been iterating on this for years.
And I'm in a similar boat and that's, [00:35:55] we have to keep trying, like we can't give up. And there, so one of the, one of the obstacles that's a [00:36:00] little bit tricky, uh, to maneuver around and I, I wanna talk to you about this because it sounds like [00:36:05] you guys are pushing through this obstacle, which. You mentioned that you had talked to these 20 pastors, and two of them are [00:36:10] disciple making disciples.
I, I, I spent years trying to understand why this was happening because part [00:36:15] of what I noticed was that when I talked to pastors about discipleship and disciple making, they. [00:36:20] They really, I could tell in their heart, really wanted to do it. They really believed in it, but there was [00:36:25] something that was really hard for them to get over.
And I was like, what exactly is it? And I, I finally kind of [00:36:30] like diagnosed it this way and I'm, and you guys are overcoming, this is why I wanna ask you about this. So, the way I diagnose [00:36:35] what they're really struggling with this is the pastor who I know in their heart really wants to make disciples but is not [00:36:40] doing it.
I think that, that they're struggling with, I, I call it the institutional survival problem. So [00:36:45] basically they are in a model of church. That rewards or actually to [00:36:50] even survive. And you, you know, some churches are just absolutely thriving. Um, and so I don't think they struggle [00:36:55] with this problem nearly as much, but I, I have a lot of empathy for the pastor of the small struggling church who wants to be a disciple [00:37:00] maker.
Because part of what they are really wrestling with is, is a question of [00:37:05] what, what do, what do I, how would I present to the people that are following me, that [00:37:10] are coming to this church? How do I present what a week in the life of our, of [00:37:15] being a, like a fully active member of our church looks like? And, and the, the way that I see [00:37:20] that going is a pastor who says to himself, I want to create a [00:37:25] church that, that multiplies disciples.
Well, the first part of that equation is [00:37:30] they have to have a church that actually survives. If you're gonna be a church that multiplies disciples, you have to be a church. Well, to [00:37:35] survive as a church, um, you, there are, there are three rhythms that are really [00:37:40] important to emphasize. Otherwise, the church itself as a, as a like [00:37:45] entity usually ceases to exist.
People have to attend a worship service on a regular basis, but if you [00:37:50] just attend a worship service and don't make meaningful relationships, then you're gonna, you're gonna leave out the back door. So pastors [00:37:55] have known this for decades now, so they start small group ministries. So you need everybody to attend [00:38:00] the worship service.
You need everybody to. Attend or be a part of a small group ministry and you need everybody [00:38:05] to, now you've got like lots of ministries, kids ministries. Sure. You know, small group leaders. So you [00:38:10] need, you need people. If, if they can give you three rhythms, you need those people to serve in a ministry. So, [00:38:15] so if they can only give you one, one rhythm, attend a worship service.
If you can do two rhythms a week, [00:38:20] attend a worship service and attend a small group. If you can give us three rhythms a week, attend a worship service, the small [00:38:25] group, and serve in a ministry. Um, now that's just to survive. So the question [00:38:30] that I start to ask is. Okay. What percentage of people give you a fourth rhythm and that fourth rhythm, [00:38:35] it's competing for, you know, the missions team and the, you know, and the disciple makers and the men's ministry.
And, [00:38:40] and so, um, and so this, this is the equation I, I ke keep seeing pastors get stuck with. [00:38:45] And, and so they're like, Hey, I, I, I wanna make disciples, but I have to emphasize [00:38:50] these other three rhythms. How would you, how would you, um, [00:38:55] like, uh, talk to and encourage a pastor who might be listening to this, who's like, [00:39:00] I, I, I, I'm struggling with this institutional survival problem, right?
Um, and [00:39:05] I'm emphasizing these three, these three things, and that's the real reason we're not making disciples. I [00:39:10]
Matt Massey: would ask the question, and that's, that's very real, very real. [00:39:15] Every, every pastor is, is wrestling with the time and, and, and we're full time. [00:39:20] We're asking people that are not full-time, right? I mean, if you do Sunday morning, an hour and a half, [00:39:25] right?
Uh, then you got, um, being in a small group, another two [00:39:30] hours, may, maybe twice a month, maybe every week. I mean, serve, you're, you're asking them [00:39:35] four hours a week, five hours a week, and they're going, I got kids soccer. I got, you know, pop, [00:39:40] pop, pop. And, but I would, I would argue, are those the [00:39:45] things that will help us survive actually.
Okay. That's, I would, I would [00:39:50] rethink, are those actually the four things that help us survive and how Yeah. How would you reorder
Jeremy Pryor: it or how would you critique it? [00:39:55]
Matt Massey: Yeah, yeah. I, I, I would critique it to say, um, if we, if [00:40:00] we were like the early church and we weren't getting paid, right? We were all the [00:40:05] priesthood of all believers.
I, you know, I was a carpenter and you know, you, and again, I know we [00:40:10] lived all in the same town and blah, blah, blah, blah. Would we have a gathering to celebrate what [00:40:15] God has done? Uh. And then we'd go out and we would, we would [00:40:20] make disciples. And I think we've, we've been our own worst enemy in terms of like, we've got [00:40:25] everything, all this time and energy around these systems that we have to do.
And, [00:40:30] and I just think if we really wanna thrive and not just survive, [00:40:35] wouldn't we make disciple makers? Wouldn't that be the number one priority and say. [00:40:40] You know what I, I, I don't care if people are in a small group, we'd actually say, I don't care if people in a small group, 'cause those [00:40:45] will be our small groups.
Yes, we'll reorder that. I don't actually care if they serve.
Jeremy Pryor: So [00:40:50] you would bump disciple making
to the, the number one. Number one, it's gotta be [00:40:55] number one. You, you can survive this challenge. If you, if you [00:41:00] bump this to number one,
Matt Massey: not only can you survive, you'll thrive. Yeah. Like you'll [00:41:05] actually see greater energy greater.
You'll see. [00:41:10] So let's just say, so right now we started with our 18 best disciple makers. Right now we're in [00:41:15] iteration two. Okay. Like you've just said, three and four, where the, that's where the money's gonna [00:41:20] be. So right now we started with our 18 best. We've got 89 in disciple maker groups. [00:41:25] Okay. Uh, and, and, and we're, you know, in March we started October [00:41:30] iteration two.
Jeremy Pryor: Okay.
Matt Massey: We will know next November. How many of those, [00:41:35] if, if I get 50 of those to do triads Yeah. And we're winning, we're still [00:41:40] at 150, right? We're still now, but, but the 89 that are, that are in those, [00:41:45] the engagement level, I mean, I'm like, he's serving children's ministry. She's [00:41:50] serving over, like they, they want to be more engaged.
Yes. It's like there's a level of like, [00:41:55] but we, we, we put it out of order. We try to get them serving in, you know. [00:42:00] Coffee, right? Making coffee. It's like what you experienced.
Jeremy Pryor: I mean, it's [00:42:05] exactly what you, you described in your story is that you, when you went and said, Hey, can somebody disciple me? I wanna [00:42:10] become a follow of Jesus.
They're like, sure, why don't you serve in a ministry? And what people don't realize is when you say that to [00:42:15] people, it's so transparent that what you're actually saying is, you know, that, that the, this [00:42:20] institution's more important than the movement. Yes. So you're saying like, put the movement first. We're all on the [00:42:25] movement.
The institution will get all the help it needs if you've got [00:42:30] enough, if you've got this multiplying disciple making movement,
Matt Massey: we will thrive. If we had churches based on disciple [00:42:35] making, the church would explode. Yeah. We really, we really, we wouldn't have a, we wouldn't have a volunteer [00:42:40] problem. Right. I'm leading.
Right. And by the way, as a lead pastor, [00:42:45] I know someone said, well, you're part of a mega church and you've got a staff. I'm like, yeah, yeah. Okay. I get it. I get it. But, but [00:42:50] I did this at North Star when we were small and, and my teammate David Smith, we just said. I [00:42:55] remember one thing is we're gonna grab, we're gonna grab guys, we're gonna start, and again, we did it wrong a lot, [00:43:00] but we just, and, and those, David Smith is one of the strongest disciple makers in this city.
He's [00:43:05] a discipler and he is got a, I mean, he's a great leader. He's a great strategic [00:43:10] thinker, but he's a disciple maker first, right. Chris Marlin is another one in our city. Yes. Chris [00:43:15] Marlin is a disciple maker. I love that guy. He, he, he gets it, he understands it. We've [00:43:20] gotta make disciple makers, and if we don't, and, and their church is growing healthy, it's, [00:43:25] it's growing, but through health and more and more people and they stick as they're connected.
[00:43:30] And, and so anyway, I, I, I just think pastors have got to get in their brain. [00:43:35] I am a disciple maker first. If you take my salary away, that's what I'm here to [00:43:40] do. Yes. When, when you have a pastor say. I'm here to throw a, a [00:43:45] gathering and to run a, run an institution. I know they're not happy about it. [00:43:50] Yeah. I talked to 'em. They're not loving what they're doing. They're going, this isn't what I signed up for. Right. [00:43:55] I mean, I talked to, you know, guys and they're like, or women, and they're like, yeah, [00:44:00] I'm, I spent 25 hours on my talk prep.
I'm like, [00:44:05] sorry, can I bang my head on the table? Like, like, look at your spouse. How, how soon did your [00:44:10] spouse forget your own talk? Sunday night at six? Like, you [00:44:15] don't even remember your own talk. And I'm not saying it's not not good, right? But that is,
Jeremy Pryor: [00:44:20] you call front door is not. It's almost like you're, you're saying, look, we're, I'm gathering people [00:44:25] to, to the movement and this is, you know, this is how this, you know, the [00:44:30] reality is the way that things are in our culture.
If somebody is. Looking for [00:44:35] Christ. If somebody is starting to have an interest in spiritual things and they wanna check out Christianity, they're gonna, they're gonna walk [00:44:40] into a church service. That's right. That's right. And so, you's right, you, the evangelistic opportunity is enormous [00:44:45] in having a front door like that.
That's, but if you don't have the, the, a really clean [00:44:50] connection between them coming to faith and then getting discipled, uh, then what are you doing? Like [00:44:55] what, what is this that we're creating? And this then becomes the, instead of it being a fishing pond, it's like [00:45:00] the holding pond.
Matt Massey: That's right. That's right.
Jeremy Pryor: Yeah.
Matt Massey: I, one of my, one of my good [00:45:05] friends, Brian, Tom, he's a, they pull off an amazing gathering. It is one of the best. It's, it's fun, [00:45:10] it's engaging and, but what people don't know or may not know about Brian, he's actually a [00:45:15] committed discipler. Yeah. He meets with men. He is pouring his life and time into [00:45:20] men.
He's, he's made that space because this is what matters. Yes. [00:45:25] I think that's, that the fruit that, that bears. Is what you, so if, if we put that [00:45:30] first disciple making first, most of us, and I did the same thing when I started North [00:45:35] Star. I, I knew disciple making was first, but the, but the next thing you know, all my energy went to the gathering.
[00:45:40] It just went to the immediacy of the gathering. I've gotta do this. I gotta, and if you just train your [00:45:45] brain to go, no, I wanna do a good gathering. I wanna do it. Well, I, I wanna prepare that. But [00:45:50] what matters most so right now in my life. I have three disciple maker groups and I [00:45:55] meet with dudes. Oh. I've just told my, and my board agrees.
I'm like, guys, this is what I'm gonna do. Do I meet with team [00:46:00] members? Do I meet with my senior leaders? Do I meet with my elders? Sure. But I, my energy is on [00:46:05] discipling men, and that's what I'm gonna stand for God about. He's not gonna, when I [00:46:10] say for God, he's not gonna say, what a great gathering you pulled off.
Jeremy Pryor: [00:46:15] Right.
Matt Massey: He won't, he's gonna say. You're a faithful man who loved your wife and [00:46:20] your daughters with everything you had. I could start crying on this one. You just gave them your life and [00:46:25] you, and you, you discipled men with every fiber of your being, every [00:46:30] fiber of your being. You didn't do it Perfect. That's what I'm gonna be.
Amen.
Jeremy Pryor: Yes. [00:46:35]
Matt Massey: Right. And I know I preach the quieter. Yeah, no, you're,
Jeremy Pryor: I think we're all trying to, [00:46:40] I, I think that maybe just to summarize the last two, um, kind of points we were [00:46:45] describing. One is. We all have to be committed to increasing the prioritization of [00:46:50] disciple making. Yes. Yes. And you have to be honest about that.
You have to be honest that if somebody comes to you or they're a [00:46:55] part of the blueprint of church, you're a part of. Do they all know that disciple making is the [00:47:00] number one thing, or not number one. And then if it's not, then where is it? Is it number four? That's right. Because guess what, if it's [00:47:05] number four, which I think that's the normal, honestly, it you we're gonna lose.
You will not have a movement [00:47:10] happen. So that's the first question. But once you prioritize disciple making, like you guys did North [00:47:15] Star. The next thing you discovered is you have to also have a strategy for reproduction. [00:47:20] Like you have, you have to, this thing has to reproduce and that that putting the seed in the fruit is [00:47:25] actually takes some intentionality, it takes some strategy, and you guys have a strategy, which is the last third [00:47:30] of your disciple making efforts is really dedicated to reproduction.
I think those are the two [00:47:35] moves. If I could, let's just leave this with anybody. The two moves everyone has to make, if you're going to be a part of a movement [00:47:40] of disciple making in the west. You have to explicitly make it a priority, [00:47:45] and you have to have a strategy for reproduction inside the process itself.
You do have [00:47:50] to have a
Matt Massey: pathway.
Jeremy Pryor: Yeah, yeah. You do have to
Matt Massey: have a pathway. Yes.
Jeremy Pryor: Yeah,
Matt Massey: that's exactly right. By, by the way, and, [00:47:55] and with that pathway, if you're talking to a church leader, if you have a hospitality team, for example, or a coffee [00:48:00] team, you're saying to your hospital, your coffee team, okay, this person.
[00:48:05] Isn't even a follower yet. We are gonna put them on the hospitality team or the coffee team. Not to stay into [00:48:10] perpetuity, but to get connected so that then they will be a disciple into a disciple maker [00:48:15] group. It is just a vehicle. Yes. If it's, if, if it's disciple making is a priority, we're using [00:48:20] this as a means to make just a bait and switch.
We're tricking people, Hey, you wanna come make coffee, but, [00:48:25] but we've made making coffee, I mean lit, literally. Like I don't know how to park really. Like I go [00:48:30] to the mall. There's not a parking team. I, I know how to park. Right. Like, we don't [00:48:35] need a parking team. Right. Let's be honest about this. Right. Right.
It's, it's like this [00:48:40] is, it's really kind of funny. Yeah. But it's supposed to be a means to disciple make. That's the point [00:48:45] making. And I, but, but, and we've struggled over the years having the vehicle, we've struggled having the pathway. [00:48:50] Yeah. And I think I'd love to hear more about your pathway.
Jeremy Pryor: Yeah. We'll, we'll dive in.
I'd love to share more, but I, [00:48:55] I. There's, I want to, yeah, and we can close, but I, I just, I love, one of the things I, I think [00:49:00] that I'm so excited about Matt is, um, I don't, I don't know of a city [00:49:05] in the west or in the US where I. There is a disciple making movement that [00:49:10] is taking off because we would know about it.
Like, and everybody listening to this, you're like, well, is that true? Well, look, you guys have to understand [00:49:15] multiplication. You can't hide it. Once it gets to the fourth or fifth generation, it, it's, it's exponential curve. It'll [00:49:20] explode. You don't need to do any research. You will find out. It'll find you if this movement, so [00:49:25] everyone listening to this right now, you understand that like me and Matt and Chris Marlin and these different, you know, [00:49:30] the different, uh, guys in the city that have made this decision.
We, we [00:49:35] need to crack this code and we need to make sure that we're on this mission and that this movement erupts in this [00:49:40] city. Because I think, I think if it does, then at least all the other [00:49:45] cities can see, oh, it's possible in the West. We know this is happening in so many countries happening in China, south [00:49:50] America, Africa, it's not happening here.
And so yeah, let's do it.
Matt Massey: And the [00:49:55] things like the, the guys like me need to avoid is all of a sudden we're in iteration two, let's do [00:50:00] a conference. No, do not do a conference. Do not,
Jeremy Pryor: yeah. You're not ready yet. Do this to the
Matt Massey: [00:50:05] fifth iteration. That's right. Do it five generations and that isn maybe you can have a conference.
[00:50:10] That's very humble to say we don't know what we're doing. Like I, I hate when people call me. I don't know what I'm doing. I [00:50:15] don't, so we're still trying to figure it out. I.
Jeremy Pryor: We don't wanna market until you don't. Don't [00:50:20] export the product until it's ready. That's right. Yeah. We we're good that, Hey, I love what
Matt Massey: you're [00:50:25] doing and I love your passion for this.
I love your passion for families, like your impact of, [00:50:30] of, by the way, let's just agree on this. I know time is probably, but if we're gonna really [00:50:35] true, do true disciple making, let's start in our family. That's right. I knew. My first [00:50:40] disciples, my wife's, my first disciples were my three daughters. Yes. And if we got three passionate, [00:50:45] and all three of my daughters are disciple making, now, this is when you're like, oh my goodness.
Now I'm, [00:50:50] we're not perfect. We've had problems. We've had issues. Yeah. You know, 'cause [00:50:55] parenting is the stinking hardest thing you've ever done. Right. But let's start there. [00:51:00] Yes. But not stay there. Yes. It's not just stay with our kids being the only disciples we make as [00:51:05] disciple makers. So anyway, thanks for all you're doing and family stuff too.
Jeremy Pryor: Amen. Thanks so much, Matt, appreciate you being on it [00:51:10] today. [00:51:15] [00:51:20] [00:51:25] [00:51:30] [00:51:35] [00:51:40] [00:51:45] [00:51:50] [00:51:55] [00:52:00] [00:52:05] [00:52:10]
